-- the candidates of the u.s. senate in montana. the square of a one of the closest races in the country. this is the first debate between the candidates. >> virginia. this is the people close the debate. brought to you by aarp virginia. the peoples of debate. now, tonight's host. >> to matt, in a very close race, the candidates will answer

questions about the issues voters in virginia will face. the moderator tonight, the political analyst and moderator of many debates in central virginia. >> thank you. let's introduce the candidates trying to beat the next u.s. senator. tunis tonight are two former governors of the commonwealth. republican george allen and democrat tim kaine. both know the stakes are high. tonight's debate is being broadcast on television stations throughout virginia. you can join live conversation about the debate on twitter #peoplesdebate. here is a look of the guideline for the debate. and it's will answer questions for me and our panel. for each question, the cat is for whom it is directed will

have 90 seconds to respond and the other will have 60 seconds for a rebuttal. there also may be a follow-up question. at the conclusion of tonight's debate, the candidates will have two minutes each to sum up their thoughts. from the league of women voters of virginia, president lynn gordon. anchor stephanie. also joining us, the state director of aarp virginia. and from wcve fm, the vice president. thank you for being with us this evening. we have determined by a coin flip that tim kaine will be the first to deliver his opening statement. the floor is yours. >> thank you. and good evening to all. it is great to be here with the league of women voters, those in the studio, and especially those at home. i am proud to be in my home

town public television station. i am a huge public broadcasting fan. i pledge tonight not to fire big bird, not to defund the big bird. lessons that i learned as mayor of this city. if we invest in the talent, if we invest in infrastructure, if we level the playing field, we will grow the economy. frankly, we have a ball and chain. it is congress. congress is holding us back. we need to change congress in two ways. we people who are more fiscally responsible. when the people who know the basics of how to work together. you will hear these things a lot tonight in my comments. i was the governor who drew top tax fraud. i had to cut $5 billion from the state budget, including my own salary. i'm the only governor in modern

times who left the office with a smaller general fund budget and when i started. i know how to be fiscally responsible. my opponent when into the united states senate in 2001 with the biggest surplus in the united states and six years later left with massive deficits. during his time in the senate, the national debt went up by $16,000. he conceded that spending was a problem in the senate. we also have people who need to know how to work together. i learned to cut crime bills and the economy. my opponent said his job was to not democrats softly. he took this similar position in the senate, fighting efforts led by the then-senior virginia senator. when someone who will fight and that is what i will do is your next to none state senator. >> if mr. allen, your opening

statement. >> thank you. it's much better future than what we are having to endure these days. that is why i put forward a detailed plan. my blueprint for america to get an economy and stronger jobs. the question is which one of us can be accounted upon. you may have read an article that was comparing our two governorships. the call me when the most accomplished modern governors with major improvements in public education, safety, welfare reform, and i described how worked with leaders in the other party to get results for the people. the bad economy, his decision, his choice serving as national party chairman rather than focusing on the economic crisis in virginia. it is the great, and answer a question in this campaign.

how does a governor decide to take on a second job, giving partisan speeches, well over 100,000 jobs are lost here in virginia. if he had given his governorship the full attention, he might have avoided some mistakes like increase in college tuition by over 40%. if he had been listening to the people of virginia who are really facing tough times, he might not have proposed raising taxes on working people, working women, seniors, small business owners, and people earning $17,000. he might tip been against the sequestration deal threatening jobs in virginia right now. but he made different choices. soon, you'll get to choose. if i have the honor of being your senator, i will give all my energy to working with both parties and getting america us sending once again. >> let's follow immediately on

these opening statements here. your campaign has basically said that you will go to washington, work across party lines, and fix that toxic political environment. but at the same time, you spent years as the democratic party chair, in some ways, being the partisan chief of the party. what would you say to virginians that would convince them that when you go to washington, you'd be not partisan and not simply a loyal lieutenant in harry reid's army. >> i will tell you two things. i served with two presidents. i serve with president bush and president obama. we did not agree on everything. i worked closely on the bush administration on a number of issues that put virginia first. railroads are being built right now largely because of president bush and his secretary of transportation and our ability to work together. we worked with the bush administration in the aftermath of the shootings at virginia

tech. i will always be a partner of the nine states, whoever the president is. i also have a track record of working across lines. first, here in richmond. second, as a republican -- as a governor with republican houses. we were the best-managed state in virginia. revested for business all years i was governor, forbes magazine. those were not tim kaine accolades. those are things we did working together. when the president ask that i serve as the and seek share, i think i had my best year. we got smoking banned. all three publication ranked virginia the best place in the united states. we saw a huge improvements in infant mortality. we recruited numerous businesses in the heart of the recession to

come to a virginia. rolls-royce opened a manufacturing facility. virginians care about results. we got results by working together. >> well, kim, there is a big difference between being the chairman of the entire democratic party committee and other political jobs. you have said how difficult the economy was in virginia, and yet when president obama asked to take on this job, you could asset to the president, i appreciate the offer, -- you could have said to the president, i appreciate the offer, but i have a job. he could said, as governor, you only have four years to of a positive impact on people's lives. you were shutting down rest areas that last year. over 100,000 jobs were lost in virginia. you could've told the president that people are hurting in virginia and you needed to give all of your attention to the people of a virginia.

now, you're asking for another job when another job if you have for the people of virginia, you did not give them 100%. >> george, i'd give them 100%. >> we're going to go to our next question. >> not to rebuttal? >> not now read our next question goes to lynn gordon. >> thank you. mr. allen, today women aren't 77 cents to every dollar earned by men. -- women earn $0.77 to every dollar earned by men. what will you do to address this pay gap? >> no one worked harder than women. i could never do what she does. notches in the campaign, running our household. i think that is the case with women that we know throughout virginia and across america.

all of the issues we are talking about, pay gaps, that is something i care about. i have a daughter who is just entered the field of work and a doctor who is a freshman in high school. i want to make sure of my daughters did the same pay for the same kind of work. the main thing we need to do is get this economy working in the right direction. in president obama's economy, they have been disproportionately feeling the brunt of this economy. there is 5.5 million women who would like a job but are unemployed. there are many others who are underemployed. the poverty rate amongst women is the worst has been in 17 years. the extreme poverty rate is the worst it has ever been. what we need to do is make sure we're doing the right things to get this economy moving. i remember talking to a mother at a gas station who only could afford $20 of gasoline. i said if you could afford a

fellow, it would cost to $37 more than it was four years ago. what would you do with that extra $37? she looked at her two children and said, well, it could pay for dinner for my children. that is the reality on why we need to have a policy in this country with more affordable energy and get our country moving in the right direction so that women do have the opportunity to lead the strong, independent lives that they deserve. >> mr. kaine. >> i think the issues are very important, especially in 2012. we've seen a whole lot of efforts to block women's progress, efforts i stand against. we have significant differences. i am proud of the fact that when i was governor at a challenging time, we did a lot to bring new businesses to virginia and to have a profile that was significantly greater than other states. if you rank states in the unemployment rates from top to bottom, we were better off in

the kaine administration than me allen administration. i support the act, george allen has refused. george allen repeatedly voted against it. i stand against efforts to take away women's rights to receive contraception at their workplace. george allen and i are in very different places on this. these issues are about women's empowerment. you cannot have a strong economy for women if you take their choices away. >> thank you. intelligence suggests that the attack on the u.s. consulate in libya that killed a u.s. ambassador and three others was a pre-planned attack carried out by outside a. in light of this revelation, would you support retaliation on libyan soil? >> i do support military action against outside a.

i think that for a long time the thought about the role in afghanistan -- we went into a afghanistan to get out at a. i'm glad we focused on it and this administration has wiped out a lot of the top leadership about kai, including getting and killing osama bin lawton. al qaeda is active elsewhere. i think the activity in africa -- in africa suggest that we need to take the battle to there. the question of when you undertake action is always a delicate one. it is important for the president and congress to be in dialogue to make sure they are doing the right thing. al qaeda terrorist declared war on the united states. wherever they're acting, if they are perpetrating crimes, we need to go get them. yes, if there was a solid, credible intelligence associating the attacks in libya from outside were there, and we

had the opportunity to get them, -- they have committed an act of war against this country. we pursue them just like this president pursuiued osama bin laden. >> we ought to go after the terrorists who killed our ambassador, wherever they may be. this is a reminder to all of us of how wrong and dangerous it is to be having these dangerous cuts to our military preparedness. our country is being attacked around the world. it is not a time to receive or ruin the modernization of our forces with these disproportionate cuts that are coming to our national defense. tim and his allies up in washington are saying we do not want these cuts from defense as the house did or did something similar to that. what they want to do is raise taxes.

it will not create any jobs. we in virginia have over 200,000 defense and technology jobs. rather than cutting back, we need to make sure we have a strong economy, a strong military. as far as our spending, i disagree with the president giving money -- if they cannot protect our embassies, they should not be getting our money. do not buy a friends. >> isn't there is 60-second rebuttal? >> no, there is not. >> island that on the first one. >> i thought i did, too. >> if we were both under the impression. >> virginia seniors who rely on social security benefits are in for a lifetime of work. almost 1 million virginians

receiving social security check every month. they are very polite, receiving on average about 77% of their total monthly income from this alone. an aging society will put strain on the program into the future. how would you protect social security for today's seniors and a strengthened it for future generations. >> thank you. i think we need to preserve social security for current beneficiaries as well as in the future. social security beneficiaries have for their entire lives and paid into it. they ought to get the benefits that were promised to them. that is one of the reasons why, as governor, we took off the unfair tax and social security. we also did away with the discriminatory tax against

federal retirees. one of the things that will help social security is a jobs. the reason is is three years earlier is because there are still people working. one of the reasons is a vibrant economy with people working. there are some changes we should put on the table and i think there are reasonable ideas for protecting the solvency of social security. that is, for example, for those who are under 50, it would not affect anybody age 50 right now or older. have a gradual increase in the age. another is an increase in the age of eligibility. have some income adjustments. for those who are millionaires, they do not need to have all those same benefits as those of lower income. that would be a way of doing it as well. one thing we should not be doing is what tim kaine try to do as

governor -- raise taxes on seniors and working women. those of the folks you are talking about. the last thing they need is more taxes imposed on them by the government. >> he estimates the fact that as governor in eliminated the estate tax and took more than 100,000 low income virginians of the income tax rolls. i just thought i would correct him there. george and i have very different strategies. this is one of the most important programs that has ever been done by the government. more than 50% of american seniors have retired into poverty before it was passed. thank you we have -- thank god we have those days behind us. that would've been a huge catastrophe prior to the collapse in washington. what i would do is allow the payroll tax of words as a way of protecting the solvency of the program.

on medicare, george allen supports the ryan budget that would turn medicare into a voucher program and push costs onto the seniors. i propose a senior savings costs, for example ending the prescription -- that we get. that would save us without jeopardize in the benefit of all. >> mr. allen, to ask both of you to take one minute to respond to tim kaine's assocation about medicare and to support the ryan budget? >> what i support is preserving medicare. both are programs that people have worked through for their lives. some of the things that can be done in social security also have to be done in my view. that is a gradual increase in the retirement age and eligibility. not for those were 50 and older, but those were under 50.

there is also over $50 billion of fraudulent payments. that ought to go to medicare. the one thing that should not be done is what tim kaine supports. what he said previously is that obamacare would be great for democrats. the seniors that i have heard from to not think it is at all grade that over $700 million is being taken out of medicare to pay for other programs. i have heard from so many folks -- doctors, cardiologists. there will be a researcher, rather than a physician providing those services. they will have difficulty getting access to those because of obamacare taking some much money out of medicare. my general view is that health care decisions ought to be made by doctors and patients -- not government panels up in washington. >> /security and medicare,

again, george as a center voted for a risky privatization. i can tell you that i'm in the u.s. senate, i will fight efforts to privatize social security and to my last breath. if it would have been a disaster that had happened. let's talk about medicare. if georgia suggest that i want to take money out of the medicare program. the $700 billion your first to is ending payments to insurance companies so we can extend benefits for seniors. a prescription drug benefit pre- preventive care. george's plan, repealing the affordable care act would take the benefits back from seniors and give them back to insurance companies. he would give them the right to turn people down for the pre- existing conditions. he would give them the right to charge women differential premiums than men. we will not solve our health care problems by putting insurance companies back in control. let's end the sweetheart deal that was negotiate with

pharmaceutical companies and negotiated. we will save $250 billion over 10 years in medicare. >> as a to a question by bill kallio for mr. cain. >> what could congress have done differently that could have led to greater or faster improvements? >> bill, i really believe what i said in my opening that there are some signs that the economy is starting to move forward. last friday, on the same day, we had the highest down number in five years. the lowest unemployment rate in four years. i think congress is the anchor wait. just look at recent history. there is a veterans a jobs bill that was pending before congress within the last few months. a decision was made by the senate minority to filibuster the bill rather than pass it. that is devastating to veterans. all the reporting suggested they did it because they want to wait

past the election day to do something positive. over the summer, republicans in the senate and democrats together pass a farm bill relief. flood insurance. school lunch programs, good for kids and grown-ups. when the bill passed, it went over to the house and the house decided to bottle up until after election day. we have a congress that is so dysfunctional that people will not work together. we see that again and again. if our ideas are perfect and do not work together, who cares? that is why we cannot afford to go back to a day where we add to the partisan record. we have to have these builders. when he was in the senate, he ridiculed john warner's efforts to find compromise, saying that we do not need to find compromise. i think we need people who know how to compromise in that one of our economy forward. >> i want to get a few things

straight here and in answer to your question. first of all, what we need to do is repeal and replace obamacare. i've talked to people but everything from internet access to screening newborn babies. the same as governor in over 300,000 net new jobs to be created and during my four years as governor as opposed to 100,000 jobs being lost. my view on what we ought to do on health care reform is not take a lead the decisions from doctors and patients. we ought to be in power and individuals. we ought to and will address pre-existing conditions. i do think children ought to be a to stay on their parents' policy until age 26. the other thing, for jobs in the economy, this is a real impediment for small businesses. i think small businesses ought to be a will to band together across state lines and have more

competition, more choice, and more affordable health insurance. we ought to have help savings accounts be made more prominent. their personal, portable, and you can take them from job to job and not have to worry about a pre-existing condition when you have a new job. there are a lot of things that can be done. what we do not need is higher taxes, more regulations. we need to unleash our american energy resources. have a tax for that is more simple, competitive, and fair. if you look at my blueprint for america's comeback, that is the way of getting jobs in america. sending the message that america is open for business again. >> i would like to give each of you a minute and a half now related to the follow we just had. mr. kaine can you address that we do not need tax relief and the obamacare should be repealed? >> let me dive right in on

taxes. we have a balance sheet that is broken. when george allen went to the senate, it was the spirit we had a surplus. but he broke both sides of the balance sheet. he dramatically slashed taxes and jacked up spending $16,000 of debt every second that he served for six years. the balance sheet was completely out of whack and it is there today. i really believe that to fix it you have to fix and both sides of the balance sheet. you have to make cuts. i believe that we should be looking to make cuts in the federal budget of about $2 or $3 for every dollar of revenue. i know how to make cuts. i'm the only governor in modern times who left office with a smaller general fund budget and when he started. george has never shown the ability to make any kind of cuts. it with a 45% when he was governor. -- it went up 45% when he was governor. on the other side of the balance sheet, the tax side, i do

believe we should let the bush tax cuts expire, as planned. there were temporary, for this to make more than $500,000 a year. that is a compromise between a democratic position of $250,000 and republican position of making all of the tax cuts permanent. if we do that, we raise $500 billion of the next 10 years and that is how we can avoid these catastrophic sequestration cuts. george has pledged never to raise any tax revenue. he will not fix either side of the balance sheet that needs to be fixed. i record of fixing both sides of the balance sheet. >> you do need a balance. the knees to the cuts made in federal spending and you also need to grow the economy. what we need to repeal and replaces obamacharacter that will save over $1 trillion and be beneficial for small businesses. you can also look at the

government where there is efficiencies in overlap. we also need comprehensive tax reform. i think we ought to have a tax code that is more simple, more fair, and more competitive. what i have been advocating is to produce the jobs -- to reduce the jobs to 20%. imposing the worst in the world taxes. if we reduce it to 20%, over 500,000 jobs could be created and $23 billion of new revenue. that will send a message that america is open for business again. we are in america with the most of energy resources in the world. we are ready, willing, and able to provide america with the power to -- with the power to our of economy. on day one, after being sworn in as your senator, i would introduce a bill to allow us in virginia to produce oil and

natural gas off of our coast. that will lead to royalties. if we did this nationwide, there would be hundreds of thousands of jobs created and the federal government would be able to get over $1 trillion of revenue without raising taxes. best of all, we would be keeping our money here in united states of america. that is the way to getting balanced approach that changes people's lives. >> i would like to move to the question last spring here in virginia, general assembly had legislation proposed that on one hand would require women obtaining abortions to have ultra sounds and secondly would propose a personhood amendment in which the government would define when life begins. do you think your party has gone too far on these issues so much so it might invade the legit my privacy of women? >> some of those issues are state issues of informed consent. one of them that tim brought up

earlier, i would never prohibit contraceptives. i think women ought to be able to have access and should have access to contraceptives. some will say, no, you can't have access to contraceptives and religious freedoms. anybody who says something like that is just playing politics. we can have religious liberty and women have access to contraceptives. and so those are the issues that are general assembly. one issue has to do with accountability as far as i'm concerned, if a criminal attacks a woman who is pregnant, i think that if that attacker injuries the woman and kills unborn child, i'm wondering for accountability and that measure on personhood would in effect allow accountability for that attack. let me add one other thing tim was talking about when i was in the senate. when i left the senate, tim, unemployment was only 4.4%.

the budget deficit, annual deficit, was $160 billion and under trajectory to being balanced. now it's 1.1 trillion, 7 times higher. you mentioned spending at $16,000 per second. you know what it is now? $47,000 per second. >> that doesn't make it any more fair. >> it makes it much, much worse. the other thing is our credit rating is downgraded for the first time in history. when i left the senate, government was borrowing 6 cents of every dollar spent and now 31 cents being borrowed over every dollar being spent. that's why we need fiscal discipline in washington. >> i have never heard someone defend increasing the debt by $16,000 a second as a good thing. and the thing that's kind of -- >> you wouldn't -- >> that's mystifying about it as he was doing that, he was repeatedly voting to raise his own pay as if that somehow merited a pay increase.

on issues of women's health, there was a very, very vivid and i think clarifying spectacle in the general assembly last year. when the legislature tried to force women to have an invasive ultrasound proceeding against their will, medically unnecessary, at their own cost. the bill was moderated but still horrible. i spoke out against it strongly. george allen took no position on it. george allen on his campaign website says we should pass federal personhood legislation. that should potentially jeopardize f.d.a. approved birth control. george supports the overturning of roe versus wade. i think that would be a very bad idea. and george supported the amendment voed on by the senate that would allow employers to doe nigh women contraceptive coverage at their places of employment. i'm against that. i will protect women's rights to make their own health care decisions because you cannot empower women in the economy if you take away their choices. >> any question from lynn gordon to mr. kaine.

>> in order to retain our american democracy, it is important for there to be full disclosure -- i'm sorry, full disclosure of all contributions, not just individuals but those made by third parties, such as corporations and special interests. the bill correctly pending in congress is the disclosed act of 2012. will you support this bill? >> lynn, i will. i think the current way of fund campaigns that allows secret third party organizations to run ads without disclosing their donors and often run false adds because there's no shame in being associated with the lie, if you can't be associated with a lie, i think it needs to be changed and i would sign on day one to a principle, no secret money new york city one should be able to give money to campaigns and give it in secrecy. at the beginning of this campaign in december, george and i debated and i said to george, let's have this campaign be a campaign against george allen and ask all third parties to

stay out and we will just each throw out our visions before the virginia public and they will be able to decide based on the visions we lay out what they want to do. george turned that down, turned that offer down. it's working in one other state, massachusetts. but he rejected it. i went back and said if super pacs are going to be involved, how about having a rule they have to disclose donors? george george often praised the virginia system of requiring full disclosure of campaign contributions. i thought maybe he will bite on this and we can at least have a transparent campaign. once again he turned us down. if you turn on tv now what you're seeing is huge numbers of ads run by third party organizations, often labeled false. you can bet if i'm a united states senator, i will go in -- and not try to defend the status quo, as george has done, but i will try very, very hard to make sure there's no secret money in politics and voters have the right to know who is funding campaigns. it seems pretty basic to me. mr. mr. allen.

>> i'm strongly in favor of freedom. the supreme court ruled on these matters. i do like virginia's laws based on freedom and disclosure. and if there was more freedom, more of the contributions would come to the campaigns. what i would like to see in any ads that are run, whether run by candidates or independent groups, including the ones that are running negative ads that are false and misleading about me, is honesty. tim has brought up this issue of pay. and he's running these ads saying that, quote, he's setting a positive example by cutting his pay as governor. and he attacks the owner. attacked me today again on it. let me give you the truthful facts and you be the judge. as governor day one i returned 10% of my salary. all four years. mark warner followed up after me a few years later and cut his by 20%. what did tim do? he didn't cut his pay at all. when he came in, he could have found followed mark warner or my example but it was well into

second year as governor he cut it by just 5%. so i was the one who actually set the positive example, tim, that you followed by you did do it half heartedly. and as far as in the senate, in the senate i returned over six years, $1.4 million from our office accounts. that's about -- over 9%. i don't think there ought to be any pay increases for congress and indeed i think they ought to withhold the pay of congress because they haven't gotten budget and appropriations bills done on time. >> he went over, can i at least have -- >> no. it's time for mr. allen. you have gone over too. >> mr. allen, president obama decided not to enforce deportation for children of immigrants who came here illegally. do you agree with the decision to allow children of illegal immigrants to stay in this country? >> i think we need real immigration reform. my mother is an immigrant and so

i think immigrants can contribute a great deal to our country. and our immigration laws should be based on what's in the best interest of our country. i think what the president did is he ignored the law and rather then taking these cases on an individual basis, he put a whole las of people exempt from the law, which i think is going to make unfortunately more difficult to get real immigration reform. what i hear from the people of virginia is they want our borders to be secure. that is a primary responsibility of the federal government. people are for -- at least i am -- for making sure america is the world capital of innovation and one of the ways of doing that is making sure we're magnet for best minds of the world and just yesterday at the university of richmond i was saying gosh, if someone's graduating with science or technology or engineering degree and there's jobs and they're needed, attached a green card to their

diploma. so i think there are positive constructive reforms we can make. in fact even for temporary workers, h2b workers and seafood industry. they can't find americans to do the work. there ought to be a much better system 0 those people can come in, who are checked out, who are here on a temporary basis to provide good work that's needed here and actually support american jobs. those are the sort of reforms we need and i think we all need to get together and get a comprehensive reform done. one thing that doesn't work in my view is rewarding illegal behavior because if you do -- >> wire about out of time -- we're about out of time. >> -- if you reward illegal behavior, you only get more of it. >> here's something we agree on. discussion of visa is i think the right thing to do. we need visa reform so students who get degrees and state opportunities for others, we want them to stay. that's very, very important. we also should make process easier for tourists to come to the united states.

if you fliv brazil, it's a lot easier to go to europe then the u.s. we want you to come here and spend your money. we agree on visa reforms. but where we disagree is the dream act. youngsters brought here by their parents, we shouldn't lock them into underachievement but overachievers and i support a comprehensive reform that is a significant financial penalty they can work it off over a period of years. we would use the money to add border security and they could get in line to get a green card. georgia's record in congress on immigration has been to oppose comprehensive immigration reform and even pros to eliminate birth right citizenship, which has been part of american law since the aftermath of the civil war. >> bill calio for mr. kaine. >> i want to go back to medicare. you jumped the gun on me on that one. medicare provides guaranteed health coverage for people 65 and older and some disabled citizens. when i talk to people, they call

that peace of mind. >> call it what? >> peace of mind. but it's also not free. out-of-pocket comforts are high for virginia's beneficiaries, who span an estimated $4,200 or 13% of their income on premiums, co-payments and deductibles. we know every day more boomers are coming into the system and the numbers of people that have earned their right to medicare will continue to grow. while at the same time we also know that the cost of health care still continues to go up. put that all together and medicare needs to be rethought of in terms of where we're going to get the financial footage for it. so i would like to ask you to specifically either give one proposal that you would oppose or one proposal that you would approve of that would put medicare on a strong financial ground going into the future without passing on an undo financial burden to seniors and retirees.

>> well, medicare is hugely important. it's an important part of the safety net and it's also a challenging problem. let's acknowledge it's challenging because of something good. we're living longer. thank goodness for that. that creates a problem. we have to solve it but we can. i think there are right solutions and wrong solutions. i like solutions in medicare that cut costs and save costs rather than shift costs onto seniors' shoulders. to give you an example, when medicare part d was expanded to provide prescription drug benefit, i alluded to this earlier and that was voted on when george ail allen was in the united states senate. good program but two mistakes make. congress decided not to pay and put it on the credit card. sec, provision was inserted that made it unlawful for the federal government to negotiate with the companies for the prices of prescription drugs. even though the federal government doesn't negotiate for the same drugs with the same company when we buy them for the v.a. system. if we make that one change, that will save up to $24 billion

every years, $240 billion over the next 10 years. it's good for the deficit. it's good for the solvency of medicare but it doesn't jeopardize people's care. second thing i would do and some work on this as being done but there's more to do, in medicare and also in the private insurance area, i think an important reform that remains is as a nation, we should be paying for health, not procedures. we pay for procedures and we get some of the best, most expensive and most procedures in the world. but if we pay for health and healthy outcomes, we can actually save money and have healthier seniors and also healthier citizens who are happier and more productive. that's a path to cost reforms. >> mr. allen? >> well, tim criticizes me for supporting medicare part d. i think it's been very beneficial to a lot of seniors who now don't have to choose between heat and food and getting prescription drugs. especially coming under budget because there's competition and there's choice.

there's also aspects on health savings accounts i think are very beneficial as well. the wrong thing to do in medicare is be rating it and taking $700 billion out of medicare to pay for other programs. tim may call it another program in a different way but that's hardly going to help make sure medicare is solvent in the future. i think it makes sense and gradual increase in the eligibility age for those who are under age 50. i do think he income adjustments make sense. there are people who don't want to meet and have medicare who have over $1 million in income a year. those are ways of addressing if and also $50 million, $50 billion a year that has been appropriated for fraudulent payments. that ought to go back into medicare. the other thing that ought to be done is allow people to use, if they so desire voluntarily, 401-k's and i.r.a.'s if they so desire to get long-term care insurance so they don't have to lose all of their assets and

spend down if they need assisted living later in life. >> thank you. question from bill miller for mr. allen. >> mr. allen, both you and mr. kaine are on record wanting to avoid automatic spending cuts that would be caused by sequestration at the end of the year. assuming there's no change between now and then, congress doesn't take any action, what should congress do next year if and after sequestration takes effect? >> i am on this first, right? well, it's a decision i was never in favor of. i thought it was fluffing off responsibilities to yet another commission. tim supported it. in a recent debate he said it's the right thing to do. it's not the right thing to do jeopardizing over 200,000 jobs here in virginia as well as affecting adversely military preparededness. what leadership is, is setting priorities. as governor i felt top responsibilities of state government were education and law enforcement the way you pay

for it, tim, with a vibrant economy where people are working and businesses are prospering. not higher taxes. what needs to be done in the federal level is set a priority. clearly national defense is a paramount responsibility of the federal government. it's enumerated in the constitution. what needs to be done is make cuts elsewhere but the other aspect is let's grow the economy. reviewing and replacing obama care, that will save a trillion dollars over a ten-year period. there are efficiencies and redundancies in government that can save tens of billions of dollars. i mentioned earlier and i had to get rushed through it, energy and how energy resources and our country can allow us to have a more secure country, less vulnerable to outside forces but if we unleash energy resources from virginia to the gulf to appalachians to rockies to barren north slope of alaska, there would be literally hundreds of thousands of jobs

created and over a trillion dollars of revenues coming to the government without raising taxes. only thing missing is the political will to unleash resources and i aim to provide leadership. >> bill, the question was about sequester and i did not hear any specifics from george how to deal with it other then we should appeal the affordable care act, which the seat -- the c.v.o. said will increase, not reduce, the deficit and put us right back into the mix of a partisan battle we've been having the last three years. we have to do fiscally responsible thing and find a compromise. here's a come compromise, here's how we can deal with sequester problem. instead of cutting a billion out of defense and nondefense, do three things. let the bush tax cuts expire for the first income over $500,. take away tax subsidies we give to the big five oil companies who made $137 billion in profits last year and let's fix that piece of medicare i talked about earlier.

if we do do three things and they're all compromised positions, we don't have a trillion cuts to find over ten years, have about $225 billion of cuts spread across government and secretary panetta said we can find savings. just don't give us a number that's too ugly or big. there are specifics and things we can do this year to avoid the sequestration effect. >> mr. kaine, this week the u.s. supreme court is going to tackle the issue of affirmative action. do you think a college applicant's race should be a factor in whether or not they're admitted to a virginia college? >> the supreme court will tackle this case, which i think they last sort of dealt with in two cases from the university of michigan in the early part of the 2000's. the issue there and issue spending today, do our public colleges accept students and student body that sort of look like the state or look like the population they serve? my kids have gone to the public schools in richmond.

they've come up in classrooms that are extremely diverse. they've gotten really good academic education but they've also really gotten spectacular education in living with the folks who are the real virginia today. we're increasingly diverse state and that's an important part of medication. i would hope what the supreme court would do in this case would be they would affirm that it is ok for a public institution, whether it's government body handing out contracts or student or college admitting students, that it's ok for them to try to make sure that their student body looks like the state looks. they should if at all practical use factors on race and economic disadvantage, are you the first in your family to go to college? but if you see public institutions where the numbers of students dramatically different then the state population, i think it's an indication of challenge and problem that we have to try to solve. i strongly believe the diversity of our commonwealth is the

strength, diversity of our nation is a strength and we ought to see diversity in our public bodies. >> mr. allen? >> i'm in some agreement with tim's expressions. i'm someone who's in favor of affirmative recruitment and i think everyone regardless of background ought to have an equal opportunity to compete and succeed. i would not want to deny people an opportunity based on race regardless of what their race is. while affirmative recruitment makes good sense, don't want people who are qualified or better qualified being denied that opportunity. we will see how the supreme court rules on this case but i think people of good hearts and good minds can come up with a proper way of addressing the need for young people, all people to get a good, quality education. i do want to say this if tim missed it, our plan getting our budget in order is clear. number one, repeal obama care and replace it. that will save over $1 trill en.

secondly, the auditors of the government identified $50 billion of overlapped and redundant programs. free, unleash our american energy resources. that's over a trillion dollars of revenues. number four, have it more comprehensive or more competitive simple tax code with fewer deductions than would not only create over 500,000 new jobs a year but over $23 billion would come in every year. that's the way to do it. set priorities, make cuts but also grow the economy. >> now time for our closing statements and by the order of coin flip, mr. allen, you go first. >> well, thank you for the opportunity to have this debate and thank you all again for watching. there's a lot at stake in this election. it's a pivotal election but it's going to determine the trajectory of our country. whether there will be changes in the united states senate, if tim is in, he will be in there for the same folks he's campaigning for all of these years when he was chair of the democratic national committee, ignoring the needs, dire needs of people in

virginia. i want to see change in washington, those positive, constructive ideas that can get this country going in the right direction. i believe we ought to get united behind the mission of sending a message to the world that america is open for business again. i think that anybody who pays taxes should be on our side unless you want to pay higher taxes. if you use electricity, you ought on our side. if you want more affordable electricity. if you drive a car and don't like the fact you're paying over $30 more every time you fill up, you ought to be on our side. if you agree with me doctors and patients ought to be making health care decisions rather then panels of bureaucrats up in washington, you ought to be on our side. if you're working for a living or if you want a job, the approach i have been advocating has proven to work. over 300,000 net new jobs created in virginia when we're working together. republicans and democrats making

regulations more reasonable. taxes lower. making sure that we froze college tuition to make sure it was accessible and affordable to virginians. all of that was beneficial to virginia and indeed if you care about the future of your children or your grandchildren, you should be on our side. i hope to be your voice in washington. but hard working tax paying families of virginia need someone on their side in washington and i hope to be there working for you and making sure all americans no matter their background, have the great opportunity to catch their dreams here in america. >> bob, i think the u.s. economy is ready for a breakthrough. there are some positive signs as we saw last week. but as i mentioned in my opening, i think congress is the shackle. congress is the ankle wait now and ineffective for congress fiscally irresponsible and doesn't know how to work together. the decision to filibuster and block a veteran jobs bill and farm bill before election day is

a perfect example we have to put new ways of thinking in congress. we have to fix the economy by investing in infrastructure and expanding educational opportunities and leveling the playing field for small businesses but we can't get there if congress is fiscally responsible and doesn't work together. on the fiscal side i have a record. governor during the worst recession since 1930's, cut by a billion in spending, cut my own pay as lieutenant governor and governor to try to two the right thing to keep virginia leading the way among other states. we were taupe of all of the accolades of states whether i when i was governor at a very difficult time. my opponent has a different record. he was in the united states senate and as i indicated started with surpluses and budget in the best shape he ever had and by the time left, it was in shambles. he wrecked both sigh of the balance sheet and hasn't said anything today about what he would do to get it back. we also need find people who know how to work together. here in richmond as governor as a tough time, it was about working together to ban smoking

in restaurants and bars, put a billion dollars into the chesapeake bay, preserve open space. we worked together even when we disagreed. but my opponent has a different track record. when he was governor he famously said his job was to enjoy knocking democrats' soft teeth down their whiny throats. more to the point when he went into the senate and there were everyday efforts to find compromise led by virginia's senior senator john warner in the gang of 14, he did not only not join those efforts but ridiculed them saying we don't need to compromise. we need folks who know how to compromise and work together. we will not move forward as a nation if we can't join together. that's the way i have served and that's the way i will serve if i have the honor to be virginia's next united states senator. thanks. >> thank you very much. mr. allen, mr. kaine, i want to thank you both of you for taking part in a very vigorous debate this evening. i want to thank our audience both here and at wcve and at home for watching and try to

remind everyone to vote in what is going to be one of the crucial and critical elections in america. i would like to turn it over to our host, bill fitzgerald from wtvr. >> thank you, bob. it's been a vigorous debate and this program has been brought to you in part by aarp virginia, league of women voters of virginia, wtvr cbs 6 and pbs, community idea station. we want to say thanks again to the candidates for appearing together on the stage tonight. we heard a lot about social security, medicare. many of the issues voters of virginia are facing. we want to thank those voters and our live audience for taking part and wavening. don't forget, election day is now less than a month away. on behalf of everyone who brought this debate to you, i'm bill fitzgerald. good night.

>> all this month and until election day, c-span is bringing you white house and senate debates around the country. on c-span television networks c-span radio and c-span.org. tomorrow we're in west virginia for the debate between democratic governor earl ray tomlin and republican challenger bill moloti. live coverage starts at 7:00 p.m. eastern. wednesday, we move to massachusetts for the third debate between republican senator scott brown and his democratic challenger, elizabeth warren at 7:00 eastern. and thursday the only debate

between the vice presidental candidates. vice president biden faces republican nominee paul ryan. our program starts at 7:00 eastern and debate at 9:00. all of those debates will be on c-span, c-span radio and c-span.org. looking back in the archives, here's an exchange from the 1984 vice presidental debate. >> let me help you with the difference, miss ferraro, between iran and embassy in lebanon. iran we were held by a foreign government. in lebanon you had a wanton terrorist action where the government opposed it. we went to lebanon to give peace a chance, to stop the bombing of civilians in beirut, to remove 13,000 terrorists from lebanon, we did. we saw the formation of a government of reconciliation and for somebody to suggest, as our

two opponents have, these men died in shame, they better not tell parents of those young marines. they gave piece a chance. our allies with us, british, french and italians. >> congresswoman ferraro? >> let me just say first of all that i almost recept vice president bush here patronizing attitude have you to teach me about foreign policy. i have been a member of congress for six years. i was there when the embassy was held hostage in iran and i have been there and i have seen what has happened in the past several months, 17 months with your administration. secondly, please don't categorize my answers either. leave the interpretation of my answers to the american people who are watching this debate. and let me say further -- that no one has ever said those young men were killed to the negligence of this administration and others ever died in shame. no one who has a child who's 19 or 20 years old's son would ever say that about the loss of anybody else's child.

>> you can see all of the presidential and vice presidential debates at our debate hub. c-span.org/debaits. coming up next -- senator tester debates his republican challenger and republican presidential candidate mitt romney delivers a foreign policy speech at the virginia military institute.

>> here's tonight's moderator, steve prosinski. >> good evening and welcome to tonight's u.s. senate debate by billings gazette communication. i'm steve prosinski, editor of the gazette. between denny rehberg and

senator john tester a democrat. three veteran montana voters will ask questions. montana public broadcasting and c-span are broadcasting tonight's debate. yellowstone public radio are broadcasting our forum also and the gazette is streaming it live on gazette.com. each candidate will have one minute to answer a question then the other candidate we have one minute to respond. each candidate will have two minutes for a closing statement. before we go to the questions,

we all ask you hold your applause until off the closing comments. we're all here to listen to them, not each other. please respect them by holding your applause until the debate has ended thank you. now to the question. we'll start with a question for senator tester. you'll have a minute to respond and representative rehberg will have a minute to comment and senator tester will have 30 seconds for a final response. >> good evening senator tester. i assume on november 6th, you will vote for president obama. i like to tell us why it's important and why his reelection and your reelection is good for mobs and -- montana.

>> if you take a look at what he's done with osama bin laden and going things in the middle east. that's been positive for the country. he took over the country was hemorrhaging 800,000 jobs a month. the job growth isn't where we want it to be we are starting to see job growth in the country and that's been positive. as far as myself is concerned, i think the level of responsibility and accountability that i brought to washington d.c. or in transparency are measured. i was the first person to put my schedule online, first person to do an audit and carry bills. montana's government is open. not only for folks like you mike and folks in the audience to be able access database that's tell people what's going on in washington d.c.

>> thank you, senator rehberg, one minute. >> there are two paths we can take this in country. senator tester and president obama have taken one path. he's voted with president obama 95% of the time. what have that given us, it's given us healthcare reform. it gave us the failed stimulus. the only shovel ready project really funded in a large sort of way was adding additional trillion dollars debt on our middle class. it also gave us not necessarily an energy policy but an environmental policy. you don't have to look very far down the veto to see the closing plant. it will cost us 35 jobs. it's going to cost the city of billings over $10 million a year in income in the surrounding

area. that's entire city of billings. that's the kind of economics we've gotten from the failed policy of president obama and from the failed policy of senator tester. >> congressman rehberg didn't answer the question why we should vote for him. the fact of the matter is, we had a broken healthcare system and making sure people with people with preexisting condition have coverage. we have to hold insurance companies accountable. as far as the stimulus package goes, the shiloh road congressman provides avenue to get to one of your developments. the fact is that the work that was done, is critically important we're going to move

forward. >> thank you very much. now tom to your question for representative rehberg. >> yes representative rehberg. you have criticized american recovery and reinvestment act, our also cut the ribbon on a road project that used stimulus. in february 2009, you credited yourself for securing $42.5 million for montana project and that year consolidated appropriation bill, that's according to your website. the very next day, you cried the $410 billion for wasteful spending. you have mostly voted the party line and accused your opponent of voting with barack obama 95% of the time. you also said we need to roll up our sleeve and work with solutions and put partnership

aside. representative, why should montana trust that you're the conservative that you now suggest that you are? >> if you think about the budget in america, we spent as much as $4.5 trillion. we can set priorities. there's no reason we can't create an economic stimulus that's going to stimulate the economy. these are the "washington journal" numbers. a trillion dollars borrowed against the debate, the difficulty, it went to things that was pure spending. if i go out on my ranch and they need to buy a new stock and it

cost $15,000, i can assume i can return. that's the problem with this stimulus. it was pure expense. there was stimulative efforts, but it didn't create the jobs. it wasn't timely or targeted, it wasn't temporary. it doesn't stimulate the economy the way it intended. could have done reduction in corporate tax. could have done it by extending the payroll tax on employers and employees that would have cost the same trillion. they didn't get that. there was a way to stimulate the economy. this was not the way to do it. >> senator tester one minute. >> the recovery act, you want to talk about what it did. it gave $500 million in tax relief for working families and small businesses. across the board, $500 million, that's for the state of montana by the way.

that's for the state of montana. it made it so emergency folks like policeman, and firefighters and teachers can stay on the job because states were in bad a shape. thankfully montana was governed by brian, he had the state in a better shape. the infrastructure projects all over the state. i talked to a worker in building curbs and working on water systems when projects being awarded. he said i wouldn't have had a job. we were losing about 800,000 jobs a month before the recovery act. after the recovery act, we saw that flatten out. we were on the cusp of a financial meltdown. >> nobody suggested we will not spend money. we want police and fire, those are expenses. if it's going to stimulate the

economy, you don't do it one time expense. you have to build, and grow and create jobs. how do you create jobs but unleashing the small businesses of montana and america. you don't do it by piling more debt. we're in fourth year over trillion dollars debt in this country. adding to our debt. since he's been a united states senator it doubled from $8 trillion to $16 trillion. we cannot continue down that same path. >> now question from jackie to senator tester. >> senator, this current session of congress has been dubbed by the pundits as the most partisan least productive in memory. even with the looming fiscal cliff and we're talking about the end of the bush era tax cuts, members of congress can't come up with a solution. why then should montana return you to to the u.s. senate?

what are you going to do to advance your vision for montana? >> well, jackie, thank you for the question. i will tell you, it is very partisan in washington d.c. it is very distressing. quite frankly, washington d.c. can learn a lot from us in montana. we worked together and get things done. we put things aside. your question was about me. why? i will tell you why, i have worked across the line time and time again. whether it's to get capital available for small businesses. whether it's to delist wolves, work with mike simpson representative out of idaho. making sure banking regulation fit america. i will continue to work with people and honest fair way.

we will come to teg. the -- together. i have confidence after the election, we will come to an agreement. democrats and republicans. that's how this problem will be solved with the fiscal cliff. >> representative rehberg, one minute. >> i'm terribly -- that's i oppose president bush, that's why i voted against the ryan budget. i didn't think it protected medicare enough. i worked across the aisle. so the specific purposes of looking at children from zero to three for nutrition, education and early childhood and development. that's why i suggest when you vote with barack obama 95% of the time, you can suggest that

you're bucking the president, when you vote for it. ultimately under the decisions that mattered most, on things like a failed healthcare reform, on a failed stimulus and on energy policy voting for cap and trade, my opponent has voted for barack obama not bucking his own party, not showing the independence necessary to try and build a more secure future for the people of montana. he stands more with barack obama, i stand more with the people of montana. >> totally ridiculous. i'm going to tell you the fact is if you look at the record, for the last 18 months, the congressman wanted to run against barack obama. they try to morphed me into barack obama. barack obama don't want to see the exxon pipeline built i do. barack obama wanted to see the bailouts, i voted against the bailouts.

i put montana first in every decision i make because that's what's most important to me is taking montana's good ideas back to washington d.c. converting it to legislation and getting it passed. >> now question from mike dennisson to represent rehberg. >> good evening congressman. you mentioned medicare, you criticized the medicare portion in the affordable care act, you voted against the ryan budget in his medicare plan. what's your medicare plan? i haven't heard much about it? >> you don't begin by taking $716 billion out of medicare. we have to do everything we possibly can to make it stronger. by taking $716 billion out of medicare, all you doing is forcing seniors to go under obamacare which will not work. it makes it much more difficult for doctors and hospitals to provide services to our seniors. the reason i voted against the ryan plan because it was a

top-down idea. it did not protect medicare recipients. my number one goal is to preserve and protect medicare for those that are on it. you don't do it by taking $716 billion out of medicare and hope that you will solve the issue or solve the problem. by paul ryan being selected as the nominee done what it will do. over the course of the campaign, you will hear more about medicare reform. ultimately hope to bring the ideas of montana back to washington. rather than a d.c. top-down solution. >> senator tester, one minute. >> only in washington d.c. when you take excessive payment to insurance payments and eliminate waste, fraud and abuse, that will be called a bad thing.

the fact of the matter is, not one benefit will be cut to medicare recipients. we have been reimbursing insurance companies and provided no benefits to our seniors. it's time to sop that reimbursment and make this program good for generations to come. the i know the congressman doesn't like the affordable care act and obama, it extends medicare for eight years. it's a safety net. it's important for our seniors. works for our seniors. we ought not become destroying it. quite frankly, you have not stepped forth with ideas on how to make medicare solvent for the future. >> representative rehberg, 30 minutes. >> you don't extend medicare by taking $716 billion out. he said benefits were not going to cut. that's not the issue, the issue is doctors and hospitals will

not be fairly reimbursed for seeing seniors. if president obama and senator tester say you will not lose your insurance under the healthcare reform, no, the problem is nobody will be able to give you that insurance. the doctor may not be able to see you. we must put that back by repealing obamacare. if by putting the money back into medicare, we can make it stronger and last longer and begin serious discussions of a bottom-up solution. >> question from tom to senator tester. >> yes senator tester, you frequently referred to as the only working farmer in the u.s. senate. trade issues by montana farm group, you have voted no. trade is important to montana because of the state's $1 billion year weed industry sell 85% of its product overseas. the state's billion dollar plus

cattle economy is depend on beef. korea bought $189 million in non-farm products from montana in 2010. second only to canada. you voted against free trade agreements against panama and columbia. explain your opposition to these agreements. >> the trade agreements have to be fair and free. quite honestly we do have tremendous opportunity especially in state of montana. but they have to be fair. we cannot allow other companies to dump their products on us. that's what i felt those free trade agreements would do exactly. i'm not opposed to trade at all. it's important that we do have trade but it can't be at our producers expenses. i felt those trade agreements were skewed toward the countries you mentioned. that's why i

opposed them. >> representative rehberg, one minute. >> towing the party line. the democrats asked him to vote against it and he vote against it. panama and columbia, and it was told us by them to listen and learn about the trade that could be done with them. you know what's interesting about that, since that time we've increased our agricultural exports to montana by 200%. i bucked my own republican party and i voted no, the same is true with cafta. i showed the independence of traveling and learning and

listening and finding out what is in the best interest of our producers. i showed the independence of voting for those that were good for us and against those that i thought hurt montana. i didn't stand with my party, i stood with montana. >> senator tester. >> very quickly, i will say this, president obama wanted those trade agreements congressman. you stood with president obama on those trade agreements. i chose to do what's right for montana's producers. what we're seeing now are prices where we can afford a farm bill where farmers and ranchers don't have to go to the governmenttor get their check and they can get it from the marketplace. >> congressman, i like to go back to the claim that your opponent vote with president barack obama 95% of the time and you said it repeatedly tonight that you're a maverick and

you're an independent. the "washington journal" called out on that earlier this year. they called you more conservative than 81% of your colleagues in the house. congressional quarterly say you joined your gop colleagues more than 93% times each year. how is that being a maverick when clearly you're partisan. can't the argument be made that you're not effective with your own party? you talked tonight about the failure to get the farm bill out of the house. why should montana send you instead to the u.s. senate? >> there's a difference between voting with barack obama and 95% of the time and voting on what i believe is the right interest. when he talk about agricultural producers, i heard from montana because i traveled all 56 counties continually that they wanted the trade practices with south korea. that they wanted the trade

practices, our wheat producers were losing ground with canada in columbia. they told me that. that's why i voted for those. while at the same time, much to my party, i did in fact, vote against the free trade. i'm fighting for the farm bill. i do not agree with my own leadership. i'm doing everything i possibly can to bring that bill on to the house floor. on the republican side, think given me chairmanship in one of the appropriations subcommittee. because i understand the human needs and i listen and learn. but i don't stand with president obama 95% of the time i stand with montana 100% of the time. >> it sounds to me you stand with obama quite bathe of the time because of the trade agreement.

montana is a big state. let's talk about that farm bill. let's talk about that farm bill for a second probably one of the most important jobs the congress has to do. the senate passed the bipartisan farm bill back in june with almost three quarters vote. it gives food security for the people in this country. it goes over to house, the congressman gives it lip service and it doesn't go further. i would still be in session with the senate until we got that farm bill passed. let's talk about the ryan budget for a second, it's important we talk about it. he talked about how he opposed it, he took the ryan budget numbers and that's what he budgeted off of. let's be honest with the people of state of montana. >> representative rehberg, 30 seconds. >> anybody with the room believe

i do not want to see a farm bill? if you did travel around the 56 counties and you did listen to those having livestock disaster assistance, we passed a disaster assistance livestock bill to the house of representatives that you couldn't get it through. you held it hostage for your five year farm bill. i want a farm bill as well. if you were listening to the people of montana, you know they wanted livestock mitigation. we could have done it. it passed the house of representatives. you didn't have the leadership ability to get that bill through. you played politics by holding it hostage. >> don't i get a 30 second rebuttal? >> that was his 30. >> well. >> sorry, rules are rules. now it's time for each candidate to ask questions of the other candidate. representative rehberg what is your question for senator tester. >> i will ask the question, you

support president obama 95% of the time. if you listen to the people of montana, they did not want obamacare. they did not see how the stimulus will work. they did not think the epa bureaucrats in washington, why council -- do you think president obama should be reelected >> the point is congressman, you're running against me. you're not running against president obama. there's plenty of differences between myself and barack obama. tonight i'm trying to starting to figure out there's similarities between the congressman and barack obama. we have set the standard and we've set the standard by listening to montana and doing what montana think is correct first.

that's the bottom line. he can try to morph me into barack obama because that's what he wants to run against. look at the record, whether it's for veteran and infrastructure and transparency, the list goes on. these aren't bills i just voted for, these are bills i sponsored and carried and i do want to talk about that farm bill for a second. that drought assistance you talked about, previously you say you got get that pass through the senate, the drought assistance that he wanted cost taxpayers money. >> thank you senator tester. mr.rehberg, one minute. >> i don't need to morph you into barack obama, you did it all by yourself. you listened to what he wanted and you voted for a failed stimulus and voted for cap and trade which is nothing more than energy tax. it's going to cost us jobs and oil gas and coal country of eastern montana. you supported the epa and their regulation that they're going to

shut down the corette plant. that's not being independent voice. i've tried to be an independent voice for montana by bucking my own party when necessary and supporting my party when necessary. that's why i voted against the president's healthcare reform because it's not a reformed healthcare. it is necessary we must reform healthcare, if you leave defense of medicine out of it, you haven't done a thing. ask the people of montana, they were told insurance premiums will go down $2500, they went up. it cost every member in montana $5000 for your experiment supporting the president. >> senator tester you have 30 seconds. >> i will say this, any time

jobs are lost, that's a bad deal. we're talking about epa regs been on the books for 20 years. the fact, they should invest in that plant. the problem is, congressman, you bring up stuff and hope it sticks. i voted for procedural motion to talk about energy policy in this country. we need to have a debate about that energy policy. we need to have a debate on cap and trade too. to make sure it work or not work for this country. there's plenty of things we need to debate for him to stand up here and list off a litany of things and pull them out of air, i guess it's a baloney. >> thank you steve, congressman you've taken 15 trips in your tenure in congress.

trips to australia and south america and europe and south pacific. you've eaten in castles and on boats and meal boats and gin bars and dealt with lobbyist. i'm sure the lobbyist and special interest got their money from taxpayer trips. what exactly do taxpayers of montana get? >> every trip i've taken has been the benefit of montana. i traveled to australia to find out why it was best of interest for me to vote for the australian free trade. why it was necessary to have the vote that i did. why did i travel to places like europe? i was honored in a bipartisan fashion for leading democrats in the house to give a keynote speak at normandy to honor our

world war ii veterans. you want to talk about lobbyist, you're the number one recipient of money for lobbyist. everybody out here is represented by somebody in washington d.c. i accept their information, you accept their cash, $1.8 million in the last two years from lobbyist and wall street. i learn from people and listen to people, i don't take their cash while attacking them on other end. >> it's interesting for a guy who hit $25,000 in lobbyist money and he should have reported it and did not transparent about it. who's bought commercials for the last year in a half trying to define something i'm not. it's rich that you point this out. look, you are the one that was a paid lobbyist. you were the one that told

lobbyist that you depend on them to make your decisions. you the guy who said the revolving door isn't a big deal. >> representative rehberg, you have 30 seconds to close. >> everybody in this room is represented by somebody in washington d.c. that provide information. i'm not so arrogant to believe that i know everything. i don't have to travel all 56 counties and learn about nuclear and wait refinement. i traveled around america. i went to georgia and alabama to learn about coal fire generated plants from their perspective. i done everything i potentially can to educate myself but also

to listen to people around america and around the world to ultimately make better decisions rather than going back to my farm every weekend. >> thank you congressman. question from mike dennisson to senator tester. >> senator tester, we've heard a lot tonight about what people are against. i want to talk about what you are. talking about the fiscal cliff. we have deep spending cuts and tax increases, what is your approach -- why is your approach better for the economy and why is your approach better than your opponents approach? >> i don't know your opponent's approach. the approach has got to be bipartisan. we've got to work together to solve this problem. we're talking about problem in the debt and deficit. there is no doubt that if we don't work together, we are dead in the water. mike, there have been plenty of proposals out there that make

sense for this country. big broad based proposals. talked about many of them. they're the simpson-bowls and the list goes on. it has to have everything in it, everything has to be addressed. people need to work together. i think there's critical minds in senate to get it done. when we talk about sequestration and the fiscal year, that was imposed on us a bipartisan way to get it done. we have to work together. like i said in the beginning, it's what montana do naturally. in washington d.c. we need to learn from montana. >> thank you representative rehberg, one minute. >> first thing we need to do is repeal obamacare. that will be the first action that we need to work on a bipartisan solution to the farm bill. what we really need to do as i travel around montana, the number one word i hear more than anything else, we need

certainty. we need to know what our taxes will be. i done everything i possibly can to eliminate the death tax. we need tax certainty, we don't need regulations continually dropping down. i voted against subcommittee, to have 12 people go behind closed doors to solve fiscal crisis in america. it wasn't going to work in the first place. sequestration is happening because senator tester supported sequestration and it will create a crisis at the end of the year. you know what's interesting? not only do they take $716 billion out of medicare, another 2% will be taken out of

america. sequestration can't happen. >> senator tester 30 second. >> here's the deal congressman. you voted against sequestration and you voted two years in the budget. you vote for this country to default on our debt. that was a year ago last august. the bottom line is, we don't start working together in washington d.c., we're going to continue to have single digit approval ratings. we have a good people back there that have worked together on other issue that's are critically important. cooler heads will come together and we'll get that problem solved. it will be solved in a way to works for the country short term and long term. >> congressman, what's the biggest lie that's been told about you in this election

cycle? what will you say to set the record straight? >> i haven't really thought about the biggest lie. what i really think i want to be portrayed as somebody who cares deeply about montana. i'm not sure that comes through in the advertisement against me. i listen and travel around the counties. what i would have done, i would have tried to extend the payroll tax on employers and employees. every small business could have benefited from that. i wanted tax certainty. i deeply care about the future not just of our children but i look at my mom and dad who are in their golden years because the investments are not coming back because of the recession and we're not turning this economy around as much as

possible, i care deeply about trying to change the direction that we're talking about these two avenues. the avenues of my senator opponent has taken and myself who believes there's a different path and better path one that will create a better opportunity for not just my children and grandchildren but my parents as well. >> i definitely want to keep coming back to recovery act. there was $500 million for tax relief for working families. that $500 million went to working family pockets. there's plenty of lies said about me from the beginning to end. for the last 18 months, we had continual emerging in them. the most interesting one was the one that gave me five fingers on my left hand. last week, they sent out a flier that had my face on the picture

on the body of rick santorum. it didn't take long to figure that out. the bottom line is this, i pride myself in taking montana back to washington d.c. and working with people. i don't care if they're democrats or republican or independents. it's too bad we didn't have a libertarian on the stage tonight. i don't care if it's libertarian either. the bottom line is people work together. you get things done when you work across party lines. >> representative rehberg, you have 30 seconds. >> if you want to talk about false advertising. they put my head on a silver platter in one ad. one ad shows me as the grim raper. everybody is playing that game. what i find interesting when we talk about bipartisan, they talked about leadership and getting things done, what about

the fact the senate hasn't passed a budget. let's see a bill. let's see a budget. let's roll up your sleeves across the table and do it in a transparent way. you know what's interesting to me? over the course of 2009 when they had single party rule, they passed obamacare, they passed stimulus and they passed additional $1 trillion in spending. and the appropriation committee never met once. we didn't have a single hearing. that means no public input, that means no opportunities for amendment. that's not transparency. that's what we got with single party rule. we haven't had a budget out of the senate in over three years. >> now, we have a question from jackie to senator tester. >> senator, congress designated a number of tax deductions. people call this loopholes,

things like market interest or charitable contribution. lawmakers often talk about closing loopholes but it often means standing up to special interest and this includes the middle class. do you favor closing loophole and if so, specifically which one? >> that's a great question jackie. i will tell you if you take a look at the simpson-bowls proposal brought out, it talked about income tax specifically about income tax brings in $1 trillion. look, we can reduce some of those tax earmarks and get down to a point where quite frankly we can lower the rate and actually bring in more revenue

and make it more simple. it is an opportunity there too. it's critically important economic driver. i know there are things in that bill. there are tax earmarks that have been on the books to the big oil companies. i'm talking about the drilling cost. i'm not talking about tax breaks been in the books since 1913 for the exxons of the world. the folks out there making difference, let's look at those. let's take a look at what drive our economy and what's not necessary anymore. if you take a look at -- my time is up. >> representative rehberg, you have one minute. >> unlike my opponent, i do not

support simpson-bowles. it increases gas tax by 15%. it was a promises made when you took out a mortgage and the value of your home maybe in relation what you pay in your tax. i believe in flat tax. we need a simpler system. we need a tax system that is easily done and easily understood and i will begin by helping those senior citizens with their income taxes for the purposes of making simpler for them. i got to tell you, people support reform, as long as it doesn't change anything. it will be difficult to work towards tax reform. i'm fighting for a flat tax. that is the best way to go. >> senator tester. >> the question becomes housing

deductions and charitable deductions study maintain when you have the flat tax. i will say something that we agree on. if we play politics with this, we will never get anywhere. we have to work together on this to reform our tax structure in this country. if we put guard heads together -- good heads together, we can get rid deduction. >> thank you, now a question from mike dennisson to representative rehberg. >> let's keep talking about taxes. you mentioned the federal and state taxes or you call the death tax and your wish to repeal it. the current tax does not apply to any inheritance income less than $10 million. also family farmer ranch can avoid this tax. the amount in federal debt, why is it a priority for you to cut the income taxes for the few folks inheriting more than $10 million?

>> i will correct your numbers at the end of this year, it goes back to a million dollars. you're either going to pay a capital gains tax or income tax. why do the federal government believe it's necessary to cut into the ability of a family put a business together to generate tax revenue for their public officials? why do they feel it's necessary? it's an insidious tax that hurts small business. it doesn't matter whether it's 10% or 55%. 10million or 1 million. it's not necessary and it's not right and it should be eliminated. >> senator tester. >> take a look at the fiscal condition we have in this country right now. we have to make choices. my choice is to make sure we make that $5 million per person, 35% tax rate permanent.

it doesn't drop back. what's really important with the inheritance tax and death tax, it's bounced all over the place. it's $5 million one day and $2.5 million the next and it's been bounce all over. you cannot plan for that. if it's made permanent, people can plan for it. small businesses can plan for it. it makes sense for them to do it. it's got to be made permanent. 5 and 10 is a sweet spot. almost every farm and flanch this state. >> representative rehberg, 30 seconds. >> tax problem in this country is spending problem. if you listening to what he's suggesting, he's suggesting we need to continue tax of a death of a loved one to feed a government that's out of

control. that is what i support. i believe that we should put into permanent effect the tax relief for 2001 and 2003. i believe death tax should be zero. because it gives certainty. that's the biggest thing i hear as i travel around montana, they don't know what their taxes will be. they don't know the effect of obamacare on them. is it going to cost them more to provide health insurance for their employee. the whole uncertainty is created by the fiscal cliff because they have backed introduce a spending corner that is going to be so hard to dig our way back out of. now is the time. >> now a question from tom to senator tester. >> yes, senator. in april of 2011, you removed wolves from the federal and endangered species list. the rider band -- the move was

decried by environmentalist, it was self-interest political move to endangered species act. it opened the door for other lawmakers to endanger species act protection. what do you tell montana who voted for new 2006 but oppose your act actions to delist wolves? >> there was a recovery effort on wolves and it worked. we ought to be doing back flips on that. now let's manage them. it took a lot of work to get this done. there were a lot of folks out there -- the administration being one -- that really didn't want to see this happen. we worked and we worked together with folks on both sides of the aisle. we worked with conservationist that understood that wolves will

recover. we worked with folks with the livestock industry and this was the right thing to do. it's fine to make decisions but you need to go back and monitor those decisions. it really goes back to jackie's question on earmarks. we monitored the wolves on the endangered species list. we got that done by working with republican out of idaho. >> representative rehberg, one minute. >> wolf recovery is a perfect example is what's wrong with the endangered species act. i worked in 2005 when we passed legislation in the house of representatives to reform the endangered species act. so we know where the end zone was so we would know when we recovered a species, it will be delisted. this was not a decision made by obama administration. it was a judge who reversed the position who changed the future of wolf recovery.

what we need ultimately need we needed an endangered reform act. it's not working for the betterment of the endangered species and there's nobody in this room, nobody in montana that wanted to endangered species. that want species to disappear from the face of the earth. the point is we need certainty. we need to work together to delist it. turn management back over to the state. the solution and compromise came up was stopgap. it should be delisted. the management should be sent back to the state as we have proposed in my legislation. >> the problem is, legislation didn't make it out of committee. still setting there. we got a bill we can get bipartisan support for and get passed. it was done after talking with sportsmen and livestock producers and conservationist across the board. it was the right thing to do for

the wolves. it was the right thing to do for montana. we got it done. >> now a question from jackie from representative rehberg. >> congressman, i just can't leave the topic of taxes. the argument against raising taxes on the wealthy it's going to hurt the job creators. according to the montana department of revenue just under 1% of montana household hit that threshold $250,000 a year. for 2003, montana legislature cut the top marginal tax rate. but economist can find no evidence that this tax cut has led to more jobs. jobs grew in the 1950s and 1960s when the marginal tax rate were higher than they were today. where are the job creators as the result of tax cuts for the wealthy? >> tax and cut, tax and spend? which is better? it tells you if we borrow money

-- why government feels it need to take our money away from us? if we have opportunity to invest it in job creation? why can't the government learn to balance its budget? why can't the government tighten its belt like everyone out here in this audience has to but this government does not want to. we're not going to be able to cut spending enough to balance the budget. we need to grow the economy in the way you grow the economy, you take every last dime out of the economy. you let that money stay in and circulate and grow and create the jobs necessary and build that more secure future. you cannot continue to tax your way into prosperity. you can't spend your way into prosperity. small business is the solution if you get the government off the backs. you can't in fact, have more people hired, keep those that

already have jobs and expand our economy. you don't do it by raising taxes during a recession. >> well, the fact is if you want to talk about job creation what creates job. you right, it is the small businesses. it's not the multimillionaires like yourself that create the jobs. it's the small business people and they need to get the deduction. they need to get the reduction. working families need to get the reduction. the work families are the folks that create the demand that cause more manufacturing and more economy. quite honestly, we're not talking about tightening our belt. the belt will be tightened in a battleground way -- big way. the folks making millions and millions of dollars ought to be contributing tot coiffures. >> representative rehberg.

>> feed the beast. more government, bigger government, continue the same government. rather than trying to create the efficiencies, the effectiveness can be made, all they want to do is add more money. i can solve the fiscal crisis. i have legislation introduced that will cut $1.4 trillion. we have social security and medicare that's going broke in this country and we're setting up creating two new entitlements for the president's healthcare reform? does that make any common sense that you will create two new entitlements? >> now a question from mike dennisson. >> senator tester you strongly send conservation group. congressman rehberg you strongly supported by oil oil and gas.

>> if you take a look at the xl pipeline, there's a lot of conservation groups out there that don't want to see that built. the fact, we talked about regulation here tonight. there needs to be a level of regulation out there. it can't be crazy. we need to insert montana common sense into that. sometimes i bucked the conservation groups in that. sometimes i buck other entities. we have to do what is right for montana. my record proven on that. whether it's wolves, there's another one. some conservation groups were crazy about that. it was the right thing to do. >> senator tester is the number one lobbyist for wall street

money. i guess i'd ask you, who produces and provides more jobs in the state of montana? the oil and gas entry or wall street? the oil and gas entry does. they support me, we will help build that more secure future for montana, this comes out of the oil, gas and coal fields of eastern montana to be sent to be redistributed some of the area that's are strongly supporting him. the question becomes, is there a balance? i'm a rancher by trade. i clearly understand you need economic development. you also going to protect areas. there are going to be areas you want to protect the wildlife. there are areas where you need to make a living. that's where sometimes the extreme environmentalist don't

understand. those in montana need to make a living.ly stand with the oil, gas and coal counties with the people of montana. >> senator tester. >> i -- the fact, you can pull this stuff out of air and throw it around. it doesn't meet the test of truthfulness. we need to have everything. agriculture, oil and gas, natural resources. we can -- our recreation economy is $3 billion on year in this state. to make sure we have opportunities for recreation. don't tell me it can be one industry. it's got to be a whole bunch of industries out there. moving forward and making sense for this state and country. >> now we've run out of time for questions. we will give each candidate two

minute for a closing statement about their campaign to be montana's representative and the u.s. senate. senator tester will go first followed by representative rehberg who will have the last word. >> i want to thank you and the panel and everybody that's here in the auditorium tonight and everybody watching on tv. i appreciate you're interested in this race. how many people in this audience are from the city of billings? raise your hand. congressman rehberg served each and every one of you. i want to tell you something, i've talked about montana a lot together, the first thing you do when firefighters come, you got to grasp and put it out and they put their butt on the line. you don't respond by filing a lawsuit. thanks not moving your community forward. it's been a pleasure for the

last six years. i meet incredible people. tommy a veteran in afghanistan. lost both legs and the best part of his left hand to an explosion. to see tommy parker and how he wants to go forward, he's have prosthetic legs. those people give me the drive for this job. those kind of people motivate me. we've got a great record war we've done, we were able to work across party lines. there's issues of our national debt and there's issues of jobs. there's issues to access the public plans. there's issues of healthcare. all of these are critically important as we move forward.

you're going to get your absentee ballots starting tomorrow. you will vote on november 6th. i appreciate your vote. >> representative rehberg, your two minute close. >> to the people of billings, thank you for allowing me the opportunity to represent you in the united states congress. i travel around montana over the course of last two years, nobody brought up the fire except for you. they talk about the irresponsible decision-making that goes with supporting president obama and 95% of the time on things like the obamacare, things like the failed stimulus. people of billings, it's the loss of the plant when it shuts down, you lose 35 jobs and you lose $10 million her year to -- per year to your schools. that's the real cost of what his policies are bringing.

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agriculture in eastern montana, it might be oil and gas and coal. i cannot want to get government out of the way. i want people to have the same opportunities we had and our parents had. when asked what your children have the same opportunity, they do not have that same enthusiasm. i want to return that enthusiasm to america, to montana, building a secure future for the people of montana by getting government out of the way. thank you. god bless you all. [applause] >> that wraps up tonight's forum. many thanks to these two candidates for stepping forward and offering their leadership skills. good night.

>> all this month and until election day, we are bringing you live house and senate debates from around the country. all part of our campaign 2012 coverage, live on c-span networks, c-span3 and c- span.org. you can get my schedule update on twitter or find this on facebook. see the vice presidential debate this thursday night, live on c- span, seize and radio and online at c-span.org. watch and engaged. coming up next, mitt romney delivers a foreign-policy speech at the virginia military institute. then state representatives discussed the presidential race in ohio. that is followed by a look at the key house and senate races in that state.

on tomorrow morning's washington journal, we examine mitt romney 's foreign-policy speech at the virginia military institute. then a discussion of the fiscal cliff. and bipartisan efforts in the senate to become -- to come up with a solution. later, the former federal housing finance board chairman and current state of the u.s. housing market. washington journal, like every morning at 7 eastern on c-span. campaign 2012 the date website provides -- debate website provide live coverage of the behind-the- scenes sights and sounds before and after the debate. each question is available as a separate clip. watch the were created clips as well and read streaming tweets

and other directions at c- span.org/debates. >> in his foreign-policy speech, mitt romney said president obama is passive in the middle east. and it is time to change course in the region. he spoke at the virginia military institute in lexington, virginia. foreign policy will be the focus of the third presidential debate. this is 30 minutes. [applause] >> thank you. thank you ladies and gentlemen. it is an honor for me to be here with all of you. the great cadets at military -- but in a military institute. the bad news is i was here in

spring for a parade in amnesty but no such luck today. i want to thank the general for his amazing leadership. i am sure you agree we are raising up a tremendous new class of young men and women that will lead this military and this nation going forward. i appreciate his work as well as congressman goodlatte. vmi is the oldest state- supported military institution in the united states and i would say the best. since its founding, this institution has been incredibly dedicated to the cause of honor and service. vmi has produced some of the finest officers that the military has known and during its nearly two centuries of service. it is fitting today that governor romney has chosen a virginia military institute and

you cadets as the audience to be able to discuss america's role in an increasingly dangerous and changing world. many of you no doubt will raise your hand and swear an oath to the constitution here upon graduation and also be asked to go into harm's way in four places. for that, on behalf of the people of virginia, i want to say thank you. my family is typical of virginia. i am an rv -- army veteran. my daughter was a platoon leader in iraq. we have 150,000 men and women on active duty in virginia.

830,000 veterans in virginia, about the highest number per capita of any state. the, the pentagon, the great navy base in norfolk, the home of the coast guard station, many, many places where men and women in uniform proudly serve. it was the pentagon on a virginia's soil that was one of the places attacked on 9/11. i think that perhaps our roots going back to the first commander in chief, general and president george washington, give us that unique sense of history when it comes to serving in the military. while most said the jobs in the economy and get and things of that nature, economic issues, are at the forefront of people's minds, some of the events of the past few weeks have put the issue of foreign policy front and center once again. no matter what the economy needs, america's role as the leader of the free world is always an issue of importance not only for americans, but around the world.

there are many uncertainties, and you see them on the daily news. the arab spring has created a number of new leaders in many places, egypt, libya, other places. mitt romney will be the leader, i believe, who will help to forge new strategic alliances and create a very clear policy for how we are going to deal with the mideast, and be sure that we are always vigilant in this ongoing war against al qaeda and terrorists. secondly, our strategic alliance with israel is always an important issue. governor romney has been unequivocal in his support for our friends in israel and upending their interests. thirdly, this ongoing issue of how to deal with the impending defense cuts brought about through sequestration are a critically important issue for our nation.

$1 trillion in defense cuts over the next two years is simply not acceptable to be able to defend our country and provide you, the men and women who will be in the military, with the support and equipment and material that you need to defend our nation's interests. while president obama has been largely a bystander and not forceful in preventing defense cuts, governor romney has been unequivocal that this policy must be reversed and more resources need to be applied to defense. i am delighted that governor romney has chosen at virginia military institute today to be able to deliver remarks on america's leadership role in the world and on foreign policy. he is a man of immense principle, immensely successful as a leader in the public and private sector. he was commander of the

massachusetts national guard, and understands very well what the men and women in the national guard do to support the cause of freedom. please join me in welcoming a man who i believe was ready to be commander in chief of the united states military, the next president of the united states, governor mitt romney. [applause] >> thank you. thank you. thank you so very much for that

warm welcome, and i particularly appreciate the introduction by my good friend and tireless campaign companion, gov. bob mcdonnell. we have traveled to stick together time and time again, and he goes all over the country helping me. he is also showing in virginia what conservative leadership can do to build a stronger economy. thank you also to congressman goodlatte. in particular thanks to the general. i appreciate his invitation to be here today at the virginia military institute. it is a privilege to be an institution like this that has done so much for the nation both in times of war and times of peace. for more than 107 years, vmi has done more than educate students. it has guided their transformation into citizens, warriors, and leaders.

vmi graduates serve with honor in nation's defense, just as many are doing in afghanistan and other lands. i mourn with you the 15 brave souls who have been lost. i join with you and praying for the many vmi graduates who are right now serving in harm's way. may god bless all who serve and all who have served. of all the vmi graduates, and none is more distinguished, perhaps, then general george marshall, the chief of staff of the army became secretary of state, secretary of defense, helped to vanquish fascism and plant it europe's rescue from despair. general marshall once said, "the only way human beings can win a war is to prevent it."

those words were true in his time, and they are true in our time. last month, our nation was attacked again. a u.s. ambassador and three fellow americans are dead, murdered in benghazi, libya. among the dead or three veterans, all on a mission of peace and friendship to a nation that clearly longs for both. president obama has said that ambassador chris stevens and his colleagues represented the best of america, and he is right. we all mourn their loss. the attacks against us in libya were not an isolated incident. they were accompanied by anti- american riots in nearly two dozen other countries, most in the middle east, but also in africa and asia. our embassies have been attacked, our flag has been burned, many of our citizens have been threatened and driven from their overseas homs by vicious mons chardon "death to america." these mobs which did the black banner of islamic extremism on the anniversary of 9/11. as the dust settles, as the murdered are buried, americans are asking how this happened.

how the threats we face have grown worse, and what this calls on america to do. these are the right questions. i have come here today to offer a larger perspective on these tragic recent events, and to share with you, and to share with all americans, my vision for a freer, more prosperous, and more peaceful world. the attacks on america last month should not be seen as random acts. they are expressions of a larger struggle that is playing out across the broader middle east, a region that is now and in the midst of the most profound upheaval in a century. the fault lines of this struggle can be seen clearly in benghazi itself. the attack on our consulate there on september 11, 2012, was likely the work of forces affiliated with those that attacked our homeland on september 11, 2001.

this latest assault cannot be blamed on irrepressible video insulting islam. despite the administration's attempts to convince us of that for so long. no, as the administration has finally conceded, these attacks were the deliberate work of terrorists, who use violence to impose their dark ideology on others, especially women and girls, who are fighting to control much of the middle east today, and who seek to wage a perpetual war on the west. we saw all of this in benghazi last month, but we also saw something else, something hopeful. after the attack on our consulate, tens of thousands of libyans, most of them young people, held a massive protest in benghazi against a very extremist who had murdered our people. they waved signs that read, "the ambassador was libya's friend," and "libya is sorry."

they chanted "no to militias." they marched to the terrorist compound and then and they burned it to the ground. as one libyan woman said, " we're not going to go from darkness to darkness." this is a struggle that has shaken the entire middle east. it is the struggle of millions and millions of people, men and women, young and old, muslims, christians, and nonbelievers, all of whom have had enough of the darkness. it is a struggle for the dignity that comes with freedom and opportunity and the right to live under laws of our own making. it is a struggle that has unfolded under green banners in the streets of iran, in the public squares of tunisia and egypt and yemen, and in the fight for liberty in iraq and afghanistan and libya, and now in syria. in short, it is a struggle

between liberty and tyranny, justice and oppression, hope and despair. we have seen this struggle before. you will be familiar with the general george marshall. in his time, the ashes of world war, the struggle between democracy and despotism. fortunately, we had the leaders of courage and vision, both republicans and democrats, who knew that america had to support friends who share our values and prevent today's crises from becoming tomorrow's conflicts trade statesmanlike marshall would rise to the responsibility, as did the leader of the free world. we defended our friends and ourselves from our common enemies. we led -- we led. although the path was long and uncertain, the thought of war in europe is inconceivable today as it seemed inevitable in the last century. this is what makes america exceptional. it is not only the character of

our country. it is also the record of our accomplishments. america has a proud history of strong, confident, principled global leadership, a history that has been written by patriots of both parties. this is the standard by which we measure ever present, as well as anyone who wishes to be president. unfortunately, this president's policies have not been equal to our best examples of world leadership, and nowhere is this more evident than in the middle east. i want to be very clear -- the blame for the murder of our people in libya and the attacks on our embassies in so many other countries lies solely with those who carried them out, no one else. it is our responsibility and responsibility of the president to use america's greatest power to shape history, not to lead from behind, leaving our destiny at the mercy of events. unfortunately, that is exactly

what we find ourselves in the middle east under president obama. the relationship between the president of the united states and the prime minister of israel, for example, our close ally in the region, has suffered great strains. at the present explicitly stated that his goal was to put daylight between the united states and israel, and he succeeded. and this is a dangerous situation that has set back the hope of peace in the middle east and embolden our mutual adversaries, especially iran. iran today has never been closer to a nuclear weapon capability. it has never posed a greater danger to our friends, our allies, and as, and has never acted less deterred by america as was made clear last year when iranian agents plotted to assassinate the saudi ambassador in our nation's capital. and yet 1 million iranians took to the streets in june 2009, demanding freedom from a cruel regime that threatens the world, when they cried out, "are you with us or are you with them,"

the american president was silent. across the greater middle east, as the joint board from the downfall of dictators has given way to the painstaking work of building capable security forces and growing economies and developing effective democratic institutions, the president has failed to offer the tangible support that our partners want and need. in iraq, the costly gains made by our troops are being eroded by rising violence, a resurgent al qaeda, the weakening of democracy in baghdad, and the rising influence of iran. and yet america's ability to influence events for the better and iraq has been undermined by the abrupt withdrawal of our entire troop presence. the president has tried -- he tried, but he also failed, to secure a responsible and gradual drawdown that would have better secure our gains.

the president has also failed to lead in syria, where more than 30,000 men, women, and children have been massacred by the assad regime over the past 20 months. violent extremists are flowing into the fight. our ally turkey has been attacked. the conflict threatens stability in the region. america can take pride in the blows that our military and intelligence professionals have inflicted on al qaeda, pakistan, afghanistan, including the killing of osama bin laden. these are real achievements one at a high cost. al qaeda remains a strong force, however, in yemen and somalia, libya, other parts of north africa, iraq, and now in syria, and other extremists have been ground across the region. drones and modern instruments of war are important tools in our fight, but are no substitute for national security strategy for the middle east.

the president is fond of saying that the tide of war is receding. i want to believe him as much as anyone else. but when we look at the middle east today, with iran closer than ever to nuclear weapons capability, with the conflict in syria threatening to destabilize the region, and with a violent extremists on the march, and with an american ambassador and three others dead, likely at the hands of al qaeda affiliates, it is clear that the risk of conflict in the region is higher now than when the president took office. i know the president hopes for a safer, freer, and more prosperous middle east allied with us. i shared this hope. but hope is not a strategy. we cannot support our friends and defeat our enemies in the middle east when our words are not backed up by deeds, when our defense spending is arbitrarily and deeply cut, when we have no trade agenda to speak of, and the perception of our strategy is not one of partnership but passivity. the greater tragedy of it all is that we are missing an historic opportunity to win a new friends

who share our values and the middle east, friends who are fighting for their own futures against the very same violent extremists and evil tyrant and angry mobs who seek to harm us. unfortunately, so many of these people who could be our friends feel that our president is indifferent to their quest for freedom and dignity. as one syrian woman put it, "we will not forget that you forgot about us." it is time to change course in the middle east. that should be organized around these bedrock principles -- america must have confidence in our cause, clarity in our purpose, and resolve in our minds. no friend of america will question our commitment to support them.

no enemy that attacks america will question our results to defeat them. no one anywhere, friend or foe, will doubt america's ability to back up our words. i will put the leaders of iran on notice that the united states and our friends and allies will prevent them from acquiring nuclear weapons capability. i will not hesitate to impose new sanctions on iran, and will tighten the sanctions we currently have. i will restore the permanent presence of aircraft carriers and task forces in both the eastern mediterranean and the gulf. and i will work with israel to increase our military assistance and coordination. for the sake of peace, we must make clear to iran for actions, not just words, that their nuclear pursuits will not be tolerated. i will reaffirm our historic ties to israel and our abiding commitment to its security. the world must never see any daylight between our two nations. i will deepen our critical cooperation with our partners in the gulf, and i will hold back president obama's deep and arbitrary cuts to our national defense that would devastate our military.

i will make a critical defense investments that we need to remain secure. the decisions we make today will determine our ability to protect america tomorrow. the first purpose of a strong military is to prevent war. the size of our navy is at levels not seen since 1916. i will restore our navy to the size needed to fulfill our missions by building 15 ships per year, including three submarines. i will implement effective missile defenses to protect against threats. and on this, there will be no flexibility with vladimir putin. i will call on our nato allies to keep the greatest military alliance in history strong by honoring their commitment to each devote 2% of their gdp to security spending. today, only three of the 28 nato nations meet this benchmark. i will make further reforms to foreign assistance, to create incentives for good governance, for free enterprise, and for greater trade in the middle east and beyond.

i will organize all efforts in the greater middle east under one official, with responsibility and accountability to prioritize efforts and to produce results. i will rally our friends and our allies to match our generosity with their, and i will make it clear to the recipients of our aid that in return for our material support, they must meet the responsibilities of every decent, modern government, to respect the rights of all the citizens, including women and minorities, to ensure civil society, a free media, political parties, and an independent judiciary, and to abide by international commitments to protect our diplomats and our property. i will champion of free trade and restore it as a critical element of our strategy, both in the middle east and across the world.

the president has not signed one new free trade agreement in the past four years. i will reverse that failure and work with the nation's around the world that are committed to the principles of our free enterprise, expanding its existing relationships, and starting new ones. i will support friends in the middle east who share our values but need help defending them and their sovereignty against common enemies. in libya, i will support the libyan people's efforts to forge a lasting government represents all of them, and i will vigorously pursue the terrorists who attacked our consulate in benghazi and killed our fellow americans.

in egypt, i will use our influence, including clear conditions on our eight, to urge the new government to represent all egyptians, to build democratic institutions, and to maintain its peace treaty with israel. and we must persuade our friends and allies to place similar stipulations on their aid. in syria, i will work with our partners to identify and organize those members of the opposition who share our values, and then ensure that they obtained the arms they need to defeat assad's tanks and helicopters and fighter jets. iran is sending arms to assad because they know his downfall would be a strategic defeat for them. we should be working no less vigorously through international partners to support the many syrians who would deliver that defeat to iran, rather than sitting on the sidelines. it is essential that we develop influence with those forces in syria that will one day lead a country that sits at the heart of the middle east. in afghanistan, i will pursue our real and successful transition to afghan security forces by the end of 2014.

president obama what have you believe that anyone who disagrees with his decisions in afghanistan is arguing for endless war. but the route to war and potential attacks on is a politically it time to retreat that abandons the afghans to people, the same extremists who launched 9/11. i will evaluate conditions on the ground and with the best device of our military commanders, and i will affirm that my duty is not to protect my political prospects, but to protect the security of the nation. finally, i will recommit america to the goal of a democratic, prosperous palestinian state, living side by side in peace and security with the jewish state of israel. on this vital issue, the president has failed. and what should be a negotiation process has devolved into a

series of heated disputes at the un. in this old conflict, as in every challenge we face at the middle east, only a new president will bring the chance to begin anew. there is a long and for american leadership in the middle east, and it is not unique to that region. it is broadly felt by america's friends and allies and other parts of the world as well. in europe, where putin's russia casts a long shadow over young democracies, where our oldest allies say we're giving away from them. in asia and across the pacific, where china posture recent assertiveness is sending chills through of that region. and in our own hemisphere, where our neighbors in latin america want to resist the failed ideology of hugo chavez and the castro brothers and deepen ties with the united states through trade and energy insecurity. in all these places, just as in the middle east, the question is asked, where does america stand? i know many americans are asking a different question -- why us? i know many americans are asking whether our country today, with our ailing economy and massive debt and 11 years of war, is still capable of leading.

i believe that if america doesn't lead, others will. others who don't share our interests and our values, and the world would grow darker for our friends and for us. america's security and the cause of freedom cannot afford four more years like the last four years. i believe america has the duty to our citizens and friends everywhere to use our influence wisely, with solemnity, and without false pride, but also firmly and actively, to shape events in ways that secure our interests, for our values, prevent conflict, and make the world better -- not perfect, but better. our friends and allies across the globe to not want less american leadership. they want more. more of our moral support, more of our security cooperation,

more of our trade, more of our assistance in building free societies and thriving economies. so many people across the world still look to america as the best hope of humankind. so many people still have faith in america. we must show them that we still have faith in ourselves, that we have the will on the wisdom to revive our stagnant economy, to roll back our unsustainable debt, to reform our government, to reverse the catastrophic cuts now threatening our national defense, to renew the sources of our great power and to lead the course of human events. sir winston churchill once said of george marshall, "he always fought victoriously against defeatism, the discouragement, and dissolution."

that is the role our friends want us to play again, and the role we must play. the 21st century can and must be an american century. it began with terror and war and economic calamity. it is our duty to steer it under the path of freedom and peace and prosperity. the torch america carries is one of decency and hope. it is not america's torch alone, but it is america's duty and honor to hold it high enough that all the world can see it's like. thank you so much for your participation in this great charge. god bless you, and god bless the united states of america. thank you very much. [applause] ♪

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>> on tomorrow morning's washington journal, susan glasser of foreign policy magazine examined scott mitt romney's for mullah -- forreign policy speech. then a discussion of the fiscal cliff. and efforts to come up with a solution. bruce morrison rates current state of the u.s. housing market -- housing market. live every morning at 7 eastern on c-span. >> live thursday, walked and in days with c-span as the vice- presidential candidates -- watch and engage with c-span as the

vice presidential candidates discuss and debate. at 9:00, martha raddatz moderates the debate focusing on foreign and domestic policy. after the debate, your calls, e- mails. live coverage on c-span, c-span radio and online at c-span.org. coming up tonight, state representatives from ohio discussed their state's role in the presidential race. then a look at the key house and senate races in ohio. senate theginia's eighth between george allen and tim kaine. after that, the debate between senator tester and representative rehberg. >> of this month as the presidential candidates meet for debate, we are asking students to send a message to the

president as part of a student documentary competition. students will answer the question -- what is the most important issue the president to consider in 2013 for a chance to win $5,000. there is $50,000 in total prize available. it is open to students grades 6- 12. for complete details, go on line to studentcam.org. >> state representatives supporting president obama and mitt romney were guests on "washington journal." >> we are back live.

we appreciate being with us. let me begin with the senate race. many people going into this campaign felt that this senate race was going to help to turn out for both parties. give us the lay of the land. the polls indicating sheriff brown as a head. >> he was elected into office at 18 or 19- yaers old. josh, not as much. a younger candidate. we are seeing a lot of attention across the entire country. a lot of outside interest as well. that election is going to be on the coattails of the presidential. whoever wins the presidential, if they are able to win by a large enough margin, would have an impact on whether he is reelected >> we have been talking about swing states.

the states have a senate races but in two of the three, the incumbent democrat is leading in the polls. what impact does that have for the president's campaign in ohio and what does that tell you about the senate race? guest: there is an alluring -- a lot of money being used in the campaign. what we are seeing is a coattail effect of not only the senate races but the down ticket races. the president is on the rise, an indication that in more cases than not, you have an individual that has been called for not being as honest as he should be. his pants have been on fire with lies. there is an opportunity for

people to get the true facts. from the top to the bottom, you are seeing a real changehost: how many truly undecided are there in ohio in this presidential election? guest: once the republican nominee was set, i believe that you are looking at 90% of ohioans already had their mind made up. massive amounts of money being spent on both sides try to move a very small portion. that's probably been cut in half now. you're probably looking at the present time or 4% of the people still undecided. host: this is your district. why is this part of the state? the swing state cleveland will go democratic and cincinnati will go republican.

the president will be here tomorrow. guest: it's all in the democratic. -- on the demographics. the northern part of the state is a much more blue area and the southern part is more red. central ohio, columbus, franklin county, the surrounding counties, that always determines whether or not -- which way it will go. ohio swings back and forth, from democrat to republican. the democrats have a short window in terms of being able to give people opportunity. we have seen a very anemic recovery over the last four years. that does not bode well for the president. in the swing county's, i think it will ultimately go republican or provide enough of the republican votes to help get romney over the top.

host: the direction of the country, this is one of the most popular polling questions. what's the mood of your constituency? guest: very democratic, a little restless in the past year-and-a- half or two, because the entire state is run by the republicans. they have attacked collective bargaining rights. they have gone after teachers, firefighters, police officers. it has been a redstate and a purple state and there's a real attack on working people. people are starting to realize this all reflects not only on the gubernatorial and state level but in the presidential. an attack on working people than has surfaced in too many opportunities by this administration and as governor. you have a real worry. i think people want a little better balance. the governor did not win with a

majority, only 49%. i think people are reacting to that. host: the governor says things have turned around and the unemployment rate is below the national average and things are on track. that's not the statement mitt romney is giving ohio voters. the republican presidential nominee says things could be a lot better, but they are pretty sluggish. guest: things could be in better, but things are improving in the state of ohio and they have been. it's due to some of the things we have done in the state of ohio and some direction of the governor has provided. if you look at ohio versus the nation, we are doing better than the rest of the nation. the sluggish recovery still is taking place across the country. ohio is doing a little better than that. a lot of that goes to a credit to our governor and the work of our legislature. host: both of our guests are members of the ohio state legislature.

we have a phone line set up for the buckeye state. guest: it grows on trees. guest: some people think it's a football team. in some parts of the stated grows even more. it has been used for i don't know how many years. host: they beat nebraska and that was a big win for ohio. guest: that was. host: jim is joining us from sunberry, ohio. caller: i was just wanting to make a comment. host: go ahead.

caller: i'm in my 60s and my wife has been sick before. i think we have a short memory when it comes to what they were handed when they took office. i feel like when obama took office, he was on the titanic and it was getting ready to go down. somehow he pulled it up out of their and we are on pretty solid ground compared to what it could have been. we seem to forget how bad it was when this man took office.

i am an independent. i don't think case it is what turned the states around. i think it was obama and the auto industry. i just think we have a short memory on what this guy was handed when he took office. host: thanks for the call. guest: i don't think anyone will dispute is argument that the president inherited a bad situation. we were coming through some of the most difficult times we have had. now we have had four years. we have had a 23 million americans that are still searching for employment. just in the last few days we broke a 43 straight months of national unemployment above 8%. we just dropped below that at

7.8%. our national deficit has grown through $16 trillion. the president said he was gone to cut that in half, but it doubled under his watch. very disturbing is that when the president came into office there were 32 million americans on food stamps. today its 47 million. there is still an incredible number of ohioans and americans out there struggling. the choice is clear. we can have four more years like the last four. what america needs is a real recovery. only romney and ryan can provide that. host: when the president took office we were losing 800,000 jobs a month. since the president took office, we have 5.5 million additional jobs. truck about the automobile recovering, he saved the automobile industry and 1/88 jobs in the state are reflective of the auto industry. i worked the railroad 41 years.

the guys and women working there, they're happy, jumping up and down because they have employment. one out of eight jobs are connected to the auto industry. not only that, the government at the time, strickland, and the president came to and youngstown, my area, and it one of the last steel companies in the area was given a $20 million stimulus amount that created a tremendous amount of jobs, particularly 1 mile from my area, it in an area of youngstown that's really struggling. so you see this incredible turnaround. he was hit with those 800,000 jobs per month. he created the 5.5 million. just recently are finding out the unemployment level was finally dropped below 8%. that is significant. because now we are seeing a trend where we are creating jobs for the opportunities people expected from this president. is it enough? absolutely not, but it least it's going in the right direction.

we are seeing some success in job creation. host: but it has been an anemic recovery. as you look at past recoveries in the '80s and '90s, this has been the slowest. what do you tell people working three jobs that cannot get implemented they are looking for and that companies are holding back because of government regulations? guest: don't forget the history of what we did in the depression. there was a struggle for many years. this was the toughest recession since the depression. host: there was a war to end that. guest: and we have funded two wars as well, which started in the bush administration. the dollar is used in iraq are now being funneled into areas for development to try to get down the debt. there's a real struggle going on. we all know there was a

recession. i really do believe and people in ohio believe we are starting to turn things around. if you are given a bunch of problems and then you say to the voters that these problems were created by the administration that supposedly cut taxes for the very wealthy and continues to cut taxes for the corporation and a president comes in and changes that and gives new direction, do you really want to go back to the policies that brought us the recession? i don't think so. guest: if four years is not enough, how much is? he has had four years to get his policies going and now we are very slowly starting to make progress. it's not fast enough for america and the middle-class. america used to be the place to be able to find a great job and to hire workers, to start a great business. i'm not certain that's the case

anymore. we need to do that for the middle class. guest: i want to see the things that are really happening in a positive way. when talk about reducing the unemployment rate, that's positive. we talk about creating jobs for the automotive industry, that's positive. we lost 40,000 jobs in the area where i'm from. that's over 30 years, not four years. now we are recovering. if it takes a lot of government investment, personal investment, business investment. and we are seeing a turnaround. so i'm happy about that. this economy is showing some improvement. we have to say, let's keep on working on it, mr. president. host: diane is joining us from california, a democrat. caller: good morning. i am enjoying this. can you hear me? host: we can. caller: it's early in california and the president is out here with president clinton as well.

what i want to do about, i was born in east liverpool. my grandfather had a pottery store in youngstown. my other grandfather was from yugoslavia and worked as a school principal 30 years in midland pennsylvania. so i know the area. the autoworkers are very proud. i have relatives who retired after 30 years from the autoworkers. so i have steel workers as well in my family and labor. my father drove a semi for the

steel mills 28 years in midland, pennsylvania. president obama has worked very hard getting the student loan rates down. representative levin said the republicans cut down talks completely on jobs and wanting to cut the education credit. the president signed the "dream act," and hundreds of thousands of students are able to get their education. i am educated. i put my son through law school. it is his birthday today on columbus day, october 8. we moved to california when i was 8 years old. my mother remarried and my stepfather was a marine at camp pendleton and coronado.

host: thank you for the call. guest: everything she said, i disagree with. she did talk about lowering the cost of education for kids getting into college. that is significant. she also talked about the blue part of the state that has really struggled. over the last 30 or 35 years. it's now starting to come back with a gas and oil industry, making sure that it is safe, with the steel industry, it's starting to come back. and certainly with the automotive industry. we have to be positive about those kind of things. if we continuously be rated president and start saying government is not working, voters react to that. they don't know that jay and i go to washington or columbus, they does know we are politicians and they're not happy about government. so we have to start showing the successes of government.

as president is doing a heck of a job. host: if you look at the roots of the deficit, and republicans had control of the house, the two wars were put on a credit card and medicare part d, which began the escalation. if mitt romney is elected, the $5 trillion tax cut, which is what the total price tag is, how you bring down a $16 trillion debt and continue to provide tax cuts? guest: governor romney has had a history, whether it is in the private sector or as governor of massachusetts or his phenomenal work when he chaired the olympic committee it's all exciting, of being able to balance budgets, being able to bring people together.

host: where do the numbers add up? guest: the governor in the last debate said that his numbers did not come to that amount. i'm not certain what it is, but i do know this. a philosophy that john kennedy had and ronald reagan has. you want to lower the tax base and broaden the base. we have heard many discussions about how many americans are not paying taxes. if we get more people back to work and paying taxes and contributing, that does have a rising tide and does lift all boats. do we want to have a lower tax rate with more people paying it? have a rising tide, and the theory here is, do we want to have a higher tax rate and fewer taxpayers or do we want to have a lower tax rate with more people paying it? gov. rahm lee and myself support having a lower rate. >> from the republican line, good morning. >> i was not in front of the tv, but one of the guests noted

that in ohio, being a purple state, though in republican or democrat, it seems like they don't have a lot of patience for politicians to get the job done. i am a big believer in the best man will win. the candidate running an election, but the best company will provide it. i think bailing out these things, intervening, it is probably not a good idea. >> the first part there in terms of the impatience of the ohio voters, i think it is right. ohio was hit disproportionately hard, we're 48 in job loss. we have california and new york

with more job losses, but we have been hit disproportionately hard. the voters and the citizens in this state of ohio don't have a lot of patience. i think the fact that we are continuing to see the slow recovery is not something that is going to be helpful to the president in the next few weeks. >> if you can introduce what you are studying in go ahead with your question. >> my name is j. dion, i am a senior at ohio state. i want to thank you for being here and thank you for the representatives for your time. i am passionate regarding the great lakes species in the great lakes region here. in regard to president obama as the stance -- obama's stance and

governor romney's stance, i wanted to ask what the state legislature is doing and what the governor's position is to ensure that we preserve the great lakes region and also to insure that the great lakes region will drive for many decades to come. >> the state of ohio has the stone lab. i appreciate that question because he invaded lake erie and has a substantial impact on the success of the survival of lake erie. i don't think he is doing enough, obviously. a 13 brothers and myself have a cottage on lake erie. we have seen for the last 50 years, the success of taking

care of the contaminants and the pollution. i am upset because we have not been able to take care of that focus on the great lakes. we have a serious problem with farming chemicals that are going into lake erie. we need to do a whole lot. what are we doing? on the national level, the president is not just looking at lake erie, but making sure that we protect it. we have been fighting for it, including myself. i see it, i see the success of that and i see the success and opportunities for swimming. i also see them slipping away and we have to protect the great lakes.

>> of the republican state representative in central ohio. >> good morning. but my question is if the republicans have such great ideas, why is it that romney will lie about his future policies and why there is such a great desire that they are trying to suppress the vote? that is the person that they will want in that position. that means that for some reason, you don't believe your candidate can win. as far as president obama and jobs, it will help the people. that is the problem i have. anytime you have someone that

cares about the people, just the determination to prevent the president from being a success will help the people in the united states. >> there are a lot of points there, and let me start on the notion of suppressing the vote. there is no state in the nation that has better access than the state of ohio. there is talk about the early voting in the three days before the election. we allow 35 days of early voting in the state of ohio. you can vote at home, and if you want to vote in person, it is over 250 hours. the of the states allow people to vote early without some sort of an excuse or some sort of

valid reason. for any reason at all, people are able to vote. 767 hours. when you look at the state to being asked to be sent out for every single registered voter, it is just one of those states. when it comes to access to voting, ohio takes a back seat -- a back seat to no one. we have a bipartisan process in the state of ohio, county board of elections. 176 democrats and those came to the general assembly and said that election day still matters. we need to be able to get ourselves ready for the work that needs to be done on

election day. that is democrats and republicans. the board member called me. it was not just driven by republicans, it is driven by democrats and republicans. it is a bipartisan effort that said to let us have those three days off and be able to be prepared for an election day. caution that is a disingenuous answer. when you're trying to say that there is an issue about voter fraud, there isn't any. show me one instance of voter fraud. zero. no proof whatsoever. this is about being disingenuous at lying. the president has lied about medicare, pre-existing conditions, about the budget dollars. you have an electorate out there wanting the truth and you have a

presidential candidate with state officials saying the same thing over and over. voter fraud is nonexistent. medicare is a thing they think they can lie to the american public about. if you or for obama care, but not for protecting those with pre-existing conditions, you are being dishonest. campaign and himself has been lying to the american people about bipartisanship. they fought the jobs bill, they fought medicare, they fought for obama care, and he made compromises with republicans and they still did not vote for it. i am listening to allies and for the american people say they are sick and tired of it. quite frankly, so am i..

>> i suggest you get those talking points out to the board of elections because that is not what they told us when they call our offices. democrats and republicans, the directors, the board members wanted those three days and the legislature listen to them. >> a republican stronghold in the state, we are in columbus. >> i think is interesting that we don't hear anything about the word abortion. we hear women's rights, wo men's rights to her own body. i think it's time we say the word abortion. when 55%-60% of black pregnancies end in abortion.

the black community should wake- up. >> roe v. wade law has already been viewed and passed, it is a lot that is legal. protecting a woman's right to choose is very important in not only this election but every election. the fact is, we are talking about making sure that they have health care under the obama can -- obamacare, they can. when you start talking about issues that divide us, that is a minor issue. i know it is major to some people, but i will not participate in that kind of discussion. >> i am pro-life, romney is pro- life. right now, the most important thing is getting the economy turned around and

getting a real recovery. so much time is being focused on is because americans are hurting. >> if you are doing in, washington journal on the road. we are coming to you from the ohio union which is part of the campus of the ohio state university. held back in 1870 at home to about 57,000 students. >> tried to bear with me, i am a little horse. in 2010, high and almost choked up over this, i felt like minorities didn't go out and represent our democratic party. once casey got in, he came in like a lion.

i will honestly say he did not go after black people or minorities. he did not do that. i felt like he went straight at them. i am not even a union worker. i was watching firemen and police officers in tears because you think about this. you have to go to your job, you have to go out in the stands, and you have this -- to get signatures all day. all the unions and the people that mean something to us. they went after teachers. >> thank you. we will get a response. >> elections don't change the

math or the facts. and when the governor took over, we are 48 in the nation in job losses. we had 84 cents in the rainy day account and we face a structural budget deficit of $8 billion. some difficult decisions have to be made. we passed a number of measures pushed by the governor in the general assembly. with so that her budget deficit without doing it with a tax increase. there were some cuts that were involved in that. the were difficult decisions that had to be made, but at the end of the day, we are bearing the fruits of that. ohio is doing much better. that goes back to why i say the government and the work of the general assembly of ohio. hong >> of the voters will turn out in what%?

>> it could be over 55%. i am not happy with 55%. those numbers are always in a state of flux, but more people are interested right now. i was almost despondent because of a lower turnout. that one is exactly right. you have to crewmember one thing. he who can cut a budget with the state and you can hire police and fire. it makes it difficult to put the state of ohio behind mississippi and that is a sad case. there is a real struggle in making sure we get home colleagues. balance it on the back of the middle class and the poor, that is the real struggle. i think they see through the facade of this administration and the republicans are

attempting to holding back the vote and the holding back people from participating. i think 55% is a good number. good morning. >> are you with us? we are having feedback. please go ahead. >> i wanted to apologize for both gentlemen having a lackluster attendance because people don't want to get up in the morning. i am in new york and i am talking about the suing the state. the attention should be given for the voting machine. time and time again, it is a very decisive entity for the corruption and how easily they will alter the results.

private corporations, how they vote, it is a real problem. >> let me stop you there and see what the process is in ohio. >> have verification at the local level. i believe that we have bipartisanship at the local level, we have the insurance of making sure that we have an open process to make sure that they can watch. there is a paranoia about using machines. we also understand that in florida, the hanging chad's, and they were serious issues that decided the presidency of the united states. what we are worried about an hour paranoid way is making sure that the machines are working and they are checked off.

>> we are well prepared and we have the secretary of state well-prepared. while the entire nation may be watching of election night to see where ohio goes, i think it is going to go down to ohio and florida and possibly virginia. we are not going to have a florida moment. whether you're a democrat or republican, the voters need to know that you will be counted and have plenty of access. your vote is going to be counted accurately and it will be reported. i understand the concerns and some of the people that have conspiracy theories out there as well. the majority of the vote, that is what will be reported.

>> republicans tried to block the vote on the weekends, during the week in some cases. by the way, all of those hours that my good friend talks about were instituted under the democratic process of the last governor, not as governor. there won't be an attempt to block the vote, we will fight as much as we can. we had to take it to court and democracy works and people pay attention to participate. >> those reforms gradually very -- you are supporting the president and you are supporting mitt romney. what percentage point? >> under two. >> i think when everything is said and done, the president will win by three points.

>> not by two. >> go ahead, steve. >> the democratic candidate there. a lot of people live in eerie because they can't find good work in ohio and they go home on the weekends. it is not some much what president obama was left, but how it got to that point. in 1998, president clinton. he turns around and takes care of steel. in 1999, the united states government suing banks for not giving low-income people home loans which they can't afford. 2005, the bush administration tries to put through the finance reform act blocked by democrats

to get us to this point to get us a crisis that we can't refuse to waste this. if you look through pieces of history, people need to look at stuff. they need to research things. to call me a liar because i am a republican is very disingenuous and a very low politics. think anyone called you a liar, but the person you are voting for is a liar. i can say that without worrying about the fact check because fact checkers all over the united states vowed that he lied about pre-existing conditions, medicare, and the multiple of issues relative to the budget. when you talk about people coming from youngstown, you opened up a new gambling area.

we put people back to work in the youngstown area. i hope you do more research on that because the metropolitan area now leads the united states for the fastest growth in the united states. i am glad that you are at least participating in this process, but you're wrong about what happened under the bush administration. the banking attempt was not to allow people to get off on their loans, it was to allow the banking industry to rep off people. more homes have been foreclosed on in the bush administration. i love to talk about facts, but i can't call you a liar, but maybe your disingenuous on your fax. -- facts.

>> the word liar is a harsh word and divisive word. we talked about commonality but i have been around mitt romney. he is a great -- he is a man of great faith and a strong family values. given the opportunity, i know he will lead this country with honesty and integrity. you might disagree with his policies, i disagree with the president. but i try not to question his motives or his goals. i would hope that the voters get turned off by negativity. i hope that both sides can return some civility to this process and maybe not be quite as divided. i hope we are able to move forward as a country.

>> northeastern ohio, the state legislature, thank you for being with us. >> president obama returns to ohio as he speaks at a campaign rally in columbus. starting at 5:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. on tomorrow morning's washington journal, foreign policy magazine examine mitt romney's foreign policy speech. the l.a. times and tribune newspapers come oup with a solution. they rate the current state of the u.s. housing market. the washington journal, like every morning starting at 7:00 a.m. eastern. >> and this government has

maintained the closest surveillance of the soviet military buildup. within the past week, unmistakable evidence has established the fact that a series of offensive missile sites is now in preparation on that imprisoned island. the purpose of these bases can be done other than to provide a nuclear strike capability against the western hemisphere. >> do you deny that the ussr has placed and is placing medium and intermediate range missiles and sites? yes or no? don't wait for the translation. >> live from the presidential library, historians, scholars, and filmmakers, and journalists. starting at 12:30 p.m. eastern

on american history tv. >> tomorrow morning, charles schumer talks about u.s. tax policy. tax policy changes should not include rates for the wealthiest americans. you can see it live here on c- span. >> and his government, as promised, has maintained the closest surveillance of the soviet military buildup on the island of cuba. within the past week, unmistakable evidence has established the fact that a series of offensive missile sites is now in preparation on that imprisoned island. the purpose of these bases can be none other than to provide a nuclear strike capability against the western hemisphere.

>> and you deny that the u.s.s.r. has placed and is placing medium and intermediate range missile sites in cuba? yes or no? don't wait for the translation. yes or no? >> sunday from the jfk presidential library, historians, scholars for the cuban missile crisis. >> a look at the key house and senate races and issues affecting ohio voters. this is 45 minutes. >> we will turn from foreign policy to the battleground states out there. we put the spotlight on the key battleground state of ohio. we will take you live to the campus of ohio state university in columbus for the remainder of

the washington journal. the ohio state university founded in 1870, home to 57,000 students on this campus in columbus ohio, the state capital. it is considered to be the most swimming portion of an important state for both the democrats and republicans. -- bancve at the ohio you for joining us. the the moderator of capitol square on channel 10. if you look at part of this, the president is going to be here tomorrow. gov. romney has been in ohio. this is a must-win part of the state.

>> central los swingi is theest part -- ohio is the swingiest part of the swing state. central ohio is traditionally up for grabs. they are surrounding counties and are very republican. the candidate that can win here, this will usually kept the election. as far as the presidential candidates go, no republican in history has won 2700 electoral votes without winning ohio's eighteenth. no democrat has done it since john f. kennedy. obama very much wants to win it because if they win ohio, they believe they win reelection. romney has to have it as part of his coalition. >> he was in wisconsin, just

after his first debate appearance. how much enthusiasm is there among the students and among college campuses across ohio? >> he had a large turnout, expecting tomorrow's rally. we saw that in madison, wisconsin. in all reality, the enthusiasm level for the president among younger voters, while they still prefer him, he hasn't picked up young people support, that excitement level is down from where it was four years ago. the obama campaign is worried about it. a major part of that coalition was college campuses like ohio state. they have to get a shot of energy and that is why we see

them in ohio. >> you are a native of california. you are singing -- seeing california is not in the mix except the president there raising money. what is it like for you? >> is great to be in a state where you see presidential candidates campaigning. because of the electoral college system, most of the country nowadays, a small number of states that gets virtually all the attention. we are either the beneficiaries or the victims of that depending on their perspective. you can't turn on the tv without seeing a campaign advertisement including many presidential ads. you can barely walk across the street without being hit by

somebody's motorcade. >> just this morning, at about 5:30 in the morning, a six- minute commercial break. six different political ads of running between one minute 30 seconds. when you are hit by ads not only for the presidential race but a pretty contested senate race in the state. >> if you have the money, if your campaign has the money, you can't go quiet. the other campaign is running ads. i think he would be at a disadvantage there if you are going dark. the vote in ohio is today. it is this week. these candidates are doing everything they can have a structure some of the current ads where they're talking to the camera, making their appeal.

i think this is one of those states, one of five where commercial after commercial, the candidates have a heavy presence. this is key to their strategy. >> early voting, two more scheduled in the presidential race. it is in a good idea to have early voting? >> i think it is a good idea to have early voting, it is important to provide that level of convenience for voters. the jury is out on whether it increases turnout. what we have seen across the country, especially in recent years is a sharp uptick in the number of voters voting before election day.

they like the convenience and as opposed to mail-in ballots, it has certain advantages. a lot of them don't get counted for what reason are another. somewhere in the neighborhood of 2%, you avoid those problems. on that you leave it to an earlier time. there is no quen that tre are bigger advantages to having an early voting including taking pressure off of election day. >> ohio looking closely today, we should have a decision from the republican adamantly opposed, that they would cut that off before the tuesday election. it went to court, they sided

with them. they will hold a press conference today to see if they will continue to appeal or if he will open up voting. the demographics of the likely voter a weekend before the election heavily favors democrats. >> there was a decision from the sixth circuit court of appeals on friday of last week that came out in favor of the obama campaign position that for three days before the election, civilian voters have to be treated the same as military voters. >> when you come to this campus, it is the ohio state university. there are 60,000 students plus on campus including the satellite campuses. our phone lines are open. set aside for those in the state

of ohio, the president traveling here. also chris-crossing the state and into the 800 at doral votes that are up for grabs. let me go back to issue two. a big ballot initiative. >> it has to do with redistricting. in 2006, the democrats swept every statewide office with the exception of the state auditor's position. every single office, that was in 2010. it coincides with the census which triggers a redistricting. republicans did with the majority party typically has gotten when given the plan to redraw maps. that favors republicans. we had a 50-50 state.

and when you look at the legislative map and the congressional map, it is way out of whack. it creates a non-partisan commission. it would basically draw these legislative lines. we have seen it work. it is heavily opposed by the state republican party. the have already run tv ads. there is a question mark on whether there is enough funding to get out the word and whether this will go down with the weight of the republican party. >> i am part of the campaign committee that would create the redraw for district lines. we are a 50-50 states. there are almost no congressional districts that are truly competitive.

3/4 of congressional districts favor the party currently in power and almost 2/3 of the state legislative districts. for a practical purpose, the presidential elections are very competitive and our legislative elections by a large are not. the politicians in the state house downtown, and they would actually have to be in competitive districts and would be accountable to the people which is why politicians are opposed to issue two. the league of women voters and by other co-authors, it is essential that all highland's vote to restore the power back to the people. they claim that this gives the

independent panel a blank check had and it is taking it out of the control of elected officials. how do you respond to that? >> you don't have to take my word for it, there will be the ohio supreme court which has six republicans and one democrat, finding that allegation to the fall. they are desperate to hold onto their own power and they told one lie after another in an effort to keep that power. the reality is that the commission would be a lot more transparent, where maps were drawn. maps were drawn in a secret hotel room, called in emails by the bun -- "the bunker."

>> a political editor and reporter, the title of capitol square. >> how are you? >> i have been put off with some of the negativity we have seen. it may be an independent. i did not like the way the health care thing went on. there was one ad that the president was running about the auto industry.

chrysler and gm combined, i think it is kind of deceitful to say that the bailout save these other countries and these other companies. >> we will get a response. >> i can speak to the specifics of that one because we haven't seen it. the unemployment rate across the state is about 7%. the national average is 7.8%. detroit seems to be a solid democratic state. >> a troubling narratives are for the campaign, i remember covering it in places like the shutdown manufacturing plants where he wanted to build this narrative that the midwest were struggling. the problem is, we have a very

aggressive and ambitious governor. the unemployment rate a full point below the national average, saying that jobs are being created and companies are coming back. we had a discussion about some of the worst conditions in the state. it has been a troubling narrative and kind of a challenging one to try to get on board. is the economy bad or good? >> i think it is important to remember that people associate the american auto industry with detroit, and much of northern ohio is dependent upon the success of the auto industry which is why governor romney's

statements that detroit went bankrupt or letting detroit go bankrupt. >> it has a big presence in the central part of the state. >> i wanted to talk to you guys about the environment and something that was set in the debate last week. the president has the lead on energy and said we were drilling out more than ever for gas and oil and he is right. and mr. romney came back with their rebuttal saying, mr. president, your figures are right. we are drilling more than we have in a while. he said it is not due to your policy and he went on to say that because we are not drilling hawn federal land. -- on federal land.

the president said, do you think the american public would condone drilling in yellowstone? do you think the american public what kind underling in yosemite? i was on federal land for five weeks, fishing every day. i was on federal land where nothing is going on. want to bet, i don't fly-fishing next to an oil well. mr.st don't understand romney saying we should be drilling like crazy on federal land and that just goes to show how he is not educated about the circle of life. that is all i have to say.

>> they are major issues in this campaign. the campaign has tried to cultivate those votes because we of got into a bit of trouble here and there and it is something that the state of ohio has opened up for state lands. we are sitting on a potential gold mine and it is proceeding here in the state. i haven't heard the president speak too much about it as far as opposing coal, natural gas. >> approaching $5-$6 a gallon. here in ohio, $3.70. does that impact voter turnout?

>> i think that it would have. we came to ohio state to talk about it and gas prices were about to hit a $4 mark. the president wanted to get in front of the spin. they usually have a very difficult time winning reelection. gas prices have stabilized somewhat. he must fascinating part of this process, trying to look at the narrative of this "bad economy," we have an inflationless bad economy. that helps democrats try to hold the line. with a bad those of inflation, all of us feel it. you tried to buy milk and bread, the costs are very high. typically, you see higher inflation and all of us are in a funk. with inflation next to nothing.

dodge a map of the state of ohio. the red area is cincinnati, hamilton county, as you look in these two areas, what does that tell you? >> i think 70 of them are typically red. you're urban areas and big cities are blue. in that northeast corridor with cleveland and akron, those are heavily democratic areas. the rural parts are part of that republican coalition. you will see mostly red. the key blue areas, that is where democrats and population centers are. >> what are you looking at? >> the battle to get out the base for democrats in these

relatively few urban areas, republicans getting out their base in rural and ex-urban areas. it is critical if not more important than appealing to the media and voter. this is why everybody looked ohio every four years. not in all respects, but in this respect were the battle over turn out is going to be huge and that is precisely why the obama campaign has been fighting so hard to preserve early voting the last three days before the election because they view this as a critical way of getting their base out. they are in a better position to do that than either republicans. >> of ohio has the longest streak of getting it right.

george w. bush won reelection in 2004 with ohio's electoral votes. president obama carried it with 52% of the vote. what we will look at is hamilton county, carrying hamilton county which is unusual for the democrat to do. it is that key critical county. republicans are confident this year. the romney campaign have determined that the numbers, he is outperforming john mccain by a wide margin. >> only lyndon johnson and george mcgovern who outperformed in ohio compared to where they performed nationally. >> the demographics here, the mix of rural and urban, white, black, male, female.

i think that is why it turns out to be such a good bellwether and a barometer of where the country is at. we still have the largest chunk of the electoral votes. >> a quick follow up on that point, pennsylvania, michigan. even if you head south the west virginia, that border of ohio. what makes this so different? it seems to be solid democratic states, west virginia and is likely solid for the republicans. >> we have a mix, parts of the state that are wide like west virginia. appalachian where obama is at least most of those areas not likely to do very well. parts of the state like pittsburgh are like in

northeastern ohio, which are traditionally steel and manufacturing related areas. you have parts of the state that are like the south, rural areas that are heavily republican. in some respects, it is a unique mix of having several large urban areas and a lot of rural areas, appalachian areas that are right at the to pinpoint and almost always in presidential elections. >> we welcome our listeners on c-span radio, coming to you live from the ohio state university. the professor of law here at osu , and our next call is tony fro msouth -- from south carolina. >> i hope you don't cut me off, but i want to say something.

i generally vote republican but i have voted for kennedy. i like romney but i'm going to vote for obama because i want to see the democrats get what they deserve. black people are voting for obama because he is black and they think he will be good did them. that is fine, too. obama spins before the servicemen and tells them his father served in world war two. that makes him five and six years old. quayle put something about an e on tomato. it became viral. it will, years after he is out of office. and why are we going to the un to get this one world thing?

i want the democrats to find out why obama ordered tons of hollow point bullets for his special army. the rise and fall of the third reich, this guy is paralleling everything that hitler did. >> tony, thanks for the call. the president has never talked about his father, he talked about his grandfather who served in world war two. i am not sure he is really going to vote for barack obama, but any reaction? >> it goes to show the continued polarization in this country that we thought might go away upon his election. this country was heavily divided during the george w. bush years, the partisanship still exists today. it is an example of the vote that will be an interesting barometer for both sides.

less than 12 months ago, we had a ballot referendum that was highly controversial where they basically limited the union's right to collectively bargain. the state went to vote on that and voted to repeal it. if state swings quickly and i think ultimately, it will be a ground game. independents are disenfranchised. will they show up at the polls? >> it is absolutely true that we have seen intensify and polarization, and not just among people in washington, but across the country in recent years. the point that i would add, is making it increasingly difficult to govern because of the

redistricting that we took, incentive among people in congress is to oppose virtually everything that the president of the opposite party wants to do, and our system depends on cooperation and compromise which is why we have a lot of people across the political spectrum very frustrated by the way things are working in washington. dr. good morning to you, welcome to washington journal. >> thanks dan at gm for all of your work. it is like when ever you call, you host the show. i also alerted the united states embassy that had its own

demands and i did well with that. i mentioned a unionized worker in the united states, giving it a chance have i got the hell beat out of me and i got my dignity back about 15 years ago by joining unionized labor. i looked to florida from the midwest and i've built probably -- practically with my bare hands, one of the biggest contractors. they all move, and it is a neat little area. i have nothing to show for myself and i joined the carpenters' union and got my self-respect back and i'm calling to show for the

listeners, what the reporter just touched on, we are talking about the standard of living. whether there are bus drivers, cafeteria workers, nurses, doctors, reporters, professors that we need to, as americans, but our collective family back together again. nothing against governor romney, but if you look at the roots of bain capital, check into his connections in central america and making money off of what has happened with the cold war and the el salvador people. i would just ask that the people of ohio to realize that the heart of the republican party today care is not for abraham lincoln nor do they care for general sherman.

they are really no more about the union, we do -- stand up for yourself. we are not asking for anything we don't deserve. i appreciate both you and yourself. >> first of all, the average salary of an autoworker, what is it? because of the law that organized labor can campaign openly and go door to door, does that have a huge impact on the ground game for the democrats? >> i think that it does, this still has a lot of people that are loyal to their unions in contrast to a lot of the country. jim mentioned the law that would have stripped public-sector workers of many of their

collective bargaining rights. a law that was passed by the republican legislature, signed by the republican governor in 2011 and repealed by a citizen referendum last year. this has sort of increase the partisan polarization around these issues and gotten a lot of union households in ohio upset with our republican governor and maybe the party generally as well. >> good morning to you. >> good morning. i voted for obama because governor romney is all over the place. one day it is one thing and the following day is something else. i cannot trust this man at all. i can't believe that people can

trust him. the business that he had, and destroying companies, putting people out of work. in chicago right now, there is people on strike because the company 10 years ago, the people had to train chinese and japanese and people begging him to go there and he did not go there. i don't see how people can vote for him. it is incredible.

>> thanks for the call, another early voter. dodge democrats are counting. michele obama had 6800 supporters and she ended by saying i want you to follow the staff to the hamilton county board of elections and vote now. it is critical for both sides to get as many in the bank as possible. 61% means republicans and independents, voting to repeal that. they voted to send a message to repeal obama care. independence are critical. the judge these things as best they can. but on the same ballot an election cycle, they are sending a message to president obama while they're telling the governor that he went too far on collective bargaining.

>> did you believe them? >> never. >> obama 1 and the best of democratic circumstances four years ago with 52%. no ohio and or strategist will tell you this will be anything more than a 5152% spread. bills pose a lot out of whack. >> it is still early, and i think that when is the president the better alternative? it is just early for a swing state like this to be polling 35 days out.

i think we are going to know and ohio will tighten and this is going to be close to in the final week before the election. host: i want to share a couple campaign commercials on the air right now. many of the viewers have been commenting on them. the first is entitled "dishonesty." [video clip] >> this was dishonest. >> i am not in favor of $5 trillion tax cut. >> according to an independent nonpartisan study, barack obama and the liberals will raise taxes on the middle-class. >> the chairman of that independent group is from romoney's former company. dick cheney is on its board. newt gingrich was there as well. it's not independence, it's just not true. host: what is your reaction? guest: well, every single day the campaigns are releasing dance like that. they almost fit the topic of the day. if the other candidate has made an error, they will be on the

air in ohio within 24 hours, exploiting that error. this goes back to when we talk about the impact they have. does an individual ad like that have an impact? probably not, but there's an overall message, independents begin to form opinions about candidates. i think obama campaign advertised really heavily on ohio television through the summer and there were quite successful in getting out ahead of mitt romney in this state and defining him. rob portman could have been on the ticket. he was not. president obama was spending heavily in ohio to define romney and i think some of that stuck. guest: the obama campaign strategy has been to paint romney as an out of touch rich guy.

we have seen tightening in the polls in the last few days in ohio and throughout the country in the wake of mitt romney's very strong debate performance. i think what we are now seeing is the obama campaign strategy, which is to paint mitt romney as you cannot trust him. saw eight years ago when the election came down to ohio and the bush campaign was very successful in painting john kerry, the challenger, as a flip-flopper. guest: so many similarities between 2004 and 2008. whether it's george w. bush or the campaigns in the state are very similar.

host: marie is on the phone from cleveland, ohio. caller: i have been in cleveland all my life. i heard your guests talking about hamilton. hamilton yes, hamilton county is a heavily republican state, but there are lot of democrats also in hamilton. i am part of cuyahoga county. i believe president obama will take ohio. i believe a lot of it has to do with the auto industry and the people that supply the parts to that industry along with the fact that no one trusts romney

in this state. he has flip flopped on everything and allied. when he said the automobile companies should go bankrupt, that was all. so i do believe barack obama will win this state. as far as the polls go, i d' think they are often very much. i do believe that he has come to cleveland and proven that he does care about the middle- class and poor people in this state. that will make a difference. host: thanks very much for calling from cleveland. let me go back to what she was calling about, the early advertising that set the stage for this campaign. the obama campaign clearly spending a lot more in june, july, and august. 2012, what will that tell you about the strategy by the obama

campaign, compared to the romney campaign that says it is setting its resources for the final push? guest: it's fascinating. mitt romney struggled here in the primary. he ended up winning ohio on super tuesday with 38% of the vote against rick santorum. rick santorum really won big in areas where romney needs to win big now. the motivation veto about earlier. romney struggled early on. as he wraps up the nomination, and the president revs up. there were strategic moves that did not favor -- go ohio's way. early spending does define your opposition. we might look back and candidates might conclude that they will have to have enough money to do that early, early advertising. all the advertising we are seeing now, if they all look alike, then it's the early advertising that i think will be regarded as working here and will force all candidates to be on the air much earlier.

host: is one of those ads from the romney campaign and the focus is jobs in ohio. [video clip] >> the question ohio families are asking israel can bring back the jobs? under president obama we have lost a half million manufacturing jobs. china has passed us in manufacturing. i will stand up to china. i have a detailed plan to create 12 million new jobs, comically producing our own energy in the ground in ohio. i am mitt romney and i approve this message because ohio families cannot afford four more years like the last four. host: is this resonating? guest: i think so. it is effective with independents. independents are looking at this economy. if there were higher inflation, it would be almost a no-brainer progress of wh o the incumbent was. they are unsettled about the future plans of obama. i interviewed a woman who has been unemployed nine or 10

months in the state. she said the president promised me a job. she still plans on sticking with him, but she's very disappointed. whether independents trust mitt romney in the end, that will be in the big question, but the president's campaign is confident they will not. host: jim said something earlier that i want to get your reaction to. rob portman, if he were on the ticket, would this they'd be more competitive for mitt romney? guest: marginally. my general view on vice- presidential picks, they are fun, but don't matter nearly as much as everyone thinks. even in ohio. the reality is senator portman , a lot of people in ohio and many people will be voting could not pick him out of the lineup. even though he's our u.s. senator, he's not terribly visible.

it might have given romney a marginal bump. maybe it would've been enough to swing it, but i don't think it would have had a big impact. guest: this is where dan and i disagree. i think it would've had a huge impact. ohio has not had anyone on either national ticket since the 1940's. i don't think you could give measured the jolts of enthusiasm and excitement you would've put into grass-roots republican activists, knowing they had one of their own this close to the white house on the national ticket. he could've locked up hamilton county. he easily defeated the lieutenant governor in the senate race. one of the top fund-raisers, he's been around the block in washington a few times and is well known.

i think he would've locked up a pivotal southwestern corner of the united states for the romney ticket. the enthusiasm from republican activists would've been much higher. i personally believe that it probably would've been enough. my intuition is the romney campaign with robert portman on their ticket would be in virginia and florida and would not be worried about ohio. host: tim is the political reporter with channel 10 of the cbs affiliate in columbus, ohio. daniel tokaji is a professor of law, a native of california and spent the last 10 years at ohio state university. waste tomorrow morning, we examine mitt romney foreign- policy speak at the virginia military institute. the l.a. times interview newspapers discuss the fiscal clef to come up with a solution. the current state of the u.s. housing markets.

"washington journal," like every morning starting at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> coming up tomorrow, a decision on the economy and campaign 2012. the heads of the senior commerce business roundtable and the retail federation look at the most important business issues of this election cycle. you can see a live starting at 8:30 eastern on c-span2. >> said vice-presidential debate live this thursday night. watch and engage. coming up next, the virginia senate debate between former governors tim kaine and george allen. then the debate between senator john tester and his republican challenger john rehberg.

then a discussion on religion and the first amendment. this is the fourth debate between the candidates. this is courtesy of wtvr-tv in richmond. it is one hour. >> the candidates will answer questions about the issues the voters of virginia face.

the moderator tonight, the of many debates in central virginia. >> thank you. let's introduce the candidates trying to beat the next u.s. senator. tunis tonight are two former governors of the commonwealth. republican george allen and democrat tim kaine. both know the stakes are high. tonight's debate is being broadcast on television stations throughout virginia. you can join live conversation about the debate on twitter #peoplesdebate. here is a look of the guideline for the debate. and it's will answer questions for me and our panel. for each question, the cat is for whom it is directed will have 90 seconds to respond and the other will have 60 seconds for a rebuttal. there also may be a follow-up question. at the conclusion of tonight's debate, the candidates will have two minutes each to sum up their thoughts. from the league of women voters of virginia, president lynn gordon. anchor stephanie. also joining us, the state

director of aarp virginia. and from wcve fm, the vice president. thank you for being with us this evening. we have determined by a coin flip that tim kaine will be the first to deliver his opening statement. the floor is yours. >> thank you. and good evening to all. it is great to be here with the league of women voters, those in the studio, and especially those at home. i am proud to be in my home town public television station. i am a huge public broadcasting fan. i pledge tonight not to fire big bird, not to defund the big bird. lessons that i learned as mayor of this city. if we invest in the talent, if we invest in infrastructure, if we level the playing field, we will grow the economy.

frankly, we have a ball and chain. it is congress. congress is holding us back. we need to change congress in two ways. we people who are more fiscally responsible. when the people who know the basics of how to work together. you will hear these things a lot tonight in my comments. i was the governor who drew top tax fraud. i had to cut $5 billion from the state budget, including my own salary. i'm the only governor in modern times who left the office with a smaller general fund budget and when i started. i know how to be fiscally responsible. my opponent when into the united states senate in 2001 with the biggest surplus in the united states and six years later left with massive deficits. during his time in the senate, the national debt went up by $16,000. he conceded that spending was a problem in the senate.

we also have people who need to know how to work together. i learned to cut crime bills and the economy. my opponent said his job was to not democrats softly. he took this similar position in the senate, fighting efforts led by the then-senior virginia senator. when someone who will fight and that is what i will do is your next to none state senator. >> if mr. allen, your opening statement. >> thank you. it's much better future than what we are having to endure these days. that is why i put forward a detailed plan. my blueprint for america to get an economy and stronger jobs. the question is which one of us can be accounted upon. you may have read an article that was comparing our two governorships. the call me when the most

accomplished modern governors with major improvements in public education, safety, welfare reform, and i described how worked with leaders in the other party to get results for the people. the bad economy, his decision, his choice serving as national party chairman rather than focusing on the economic crisis in virginia. it is the great, and answer a question in this campaign. how does a governor decide to take on a second job, giving partisan speeches, well over 100,000 jobs are lost here in virginia. if he had given his governorship the full attention, he might have avoided some mistakes like increase in college tuition by over 40%. if he had been listening to the people of virginia who are really facing tough times, he might not have proposed raising

taxes on working people, working women, seniors, small business owners, and people earning $17,000. he might tip been against the sequestration deal threatening jobs in virginia right now. but he made different choices. soon, you'll get to choose. if i have the honor of being your senator, i will give all my energy to working with both parties and getting america us sending once again. >> let's follow immediately on these opening statements here. your campaign has basically said that you will go to washington, work across party lines, and fix that toxic political environment. but at the same time, you spent years as the democratic party chair, in some ways, being the partisan chief of the party. what would you say to virginians that would convince them that when you go to washington, you'd be not partisan and not simply a loyal lieutenant in harry reid's army.

>> i will tell you two things. i served with two presidents. i serve with president bush and president obama. we did not agree on everything. i worked closely on the bush administration on a number of issues that put virginia first. railroads are being built right now largely because of president bush and his secretary of transportation and our ability to work together. we worked with the bush administration in the aftermath of the shootings at virginia tech. i will always be a partner of the nine states, whoever the president is. i also have a track record of working across lines. first, here in richmond. second, as a republican -- as a governor with republican houses. we were the best-managed state in virginia. revested for business all years i was governor, forbes magazine.

those were not tim kaine accolades. those are things we did working together. when the president ask that i serve as the and seek share, i think i had my best year. we got smoking banned. all three publication ranked virginia the best place in the united states. we saw a huge improvements in infant mortality. we recruited numerous businesses in the heart of the recession to come to a virginia. rolls-royce opened a manufacturing facility. virginians care about results. we got results by working together. >> well, kim, there is a big difference between being the chairman of the entire democratic party committee and other political jobs. you have said how difficult the

economy was in virginia, and yet when president obama asked to take on this job, you could asset to the president, i appreciate the offer, -- you could have said to the president, i appreciate the offer, but i have a job. he could said, as governor, you only have four years to of a positive impact on people's lives. you were shutting down rest areas that last year. over 100,000 jobs were lost in virginia. you could've told the president that people are hurting in virginia and you needed to give all of your attention to the people of a virginia. now, you're asking for another job when another job if you have for the people of virginia, you did not give them 100%. >> george, i'd give them 100%. >> we're going to go to our next question. >> not to rebuttal? >> not now read our next question goes to lynn gordon. >> thank you. mr. allen, today women aren't 77 cents to every dollar earned

by men. -- women earn $0.77 to every dollar earned by men. what will you do to address this pay gap? >> no one worked harder than women. i could never do what she does. notches in the campaign, running our household. i think that is the case with women that we know throughout virginia and across america. all of the issues we are talking about, pay gaps, that is something i care about. i have a daughter who is just entered the field of work and a doctor who is a freshman in high school. i want to make sure of my daughters did the same pay for the same kind of work. the main thing we need to do is get this economy working in the right direction.

in president obama's economy, they have been disproportionately feeling the brunt of this economy. there is 5.5 million women who would like a job but are unemployed. there are many others who are underemployed. the poverty rate amongst women is the worst has been in 17 years. the extreme poverty rate is the worst it has ever been. what we need to do is make sure we're doing the right things to get this economy moving. i remember talking to a mother at a gas station who only could afford $20 of gasoline. i said if you could afford a fellow, it would cost to $37 more than it was four years ago. what would you do with that extra $37? she looked at her two children and said, well, it could pay for dinner for my children. that is the reality on why we need to have a policy in this country with more affordable energy and get our country moving in the right direction so that women do have the opportunity to lead the strong, independent lives that they deserve.

>> mr. kaine. >> i think the issues are very important, especially in 2012. we've seen a whole lot of efforts to block women's progress, efforts i stand against. we have significant differences. i am proud of the fact that when i was governor at a challenging time, we did a lot to bring new businesses to virginia and to have a profile that was significantly greater than other states. if you rank states in the unemployment rates from top to bottom, we were better off in the kaine administration than me allen administration. i support the act, george allen has refused. george allen repeatedly voted against it. i stand against efforts to take away women's rights to receive contraception at their workplace. george allen and i are in very

different places on this. these issues are about women's empowerment. you cannot have a strong economy for women if you take their choices away. >> thank you. intelligence suggests that the attack on the u.s. consulate in libya that killed a u.s. ambassador and three others was a pre-planned attack carried out by outside a. in light of this revelation, would you support retaliation on libyan soil? >> i do support military action against outside a. i think that for a long time the thought about the role in afghanistan -- we went into a afghanistan to get out at a. i'm glad we focused on it and this administration has wiped out a lot of the top leadership about kai, including getting and killing osama bin lawton. al qaeda is active elsewhere. i think the activity in africa -- in africa suggest that we need to take the battle to there.

the question of when you undertake action is always a delicate one. it is important for the president and congress to be in dialogue to make sure they are doing the right thing. al qaeda terrorist declared war on the united states. wherever they're acting, if they are perpetrating crimes, we need to go get them. yes, if there was a solid, credible intelligence associating the attacks in libya from outside were there, and we had the opportunity to get them, -- they have committed an act of war against this country. we pursue them just like this president pursued osama bin laden. >> we ought to go after the terrorists who killed our

ambassador, wherever they may be. this is a reminder to all of us of how wrong and dangerous it is to be having these dangerous cuts to our military preparedness. our country is being attacked around the world. it is not a time to receive or ruin the modernization of our forces with these disproportionate cuts that are coming to our national defense. tim and his allies up in washington are saying we do not want these cuts from defense as the house did or did something similar to that. what they want to do is raise taxes. it will not create any jobs. we in virginia have over 200,000 defense and technology jobs. rather than cutting back, we need to make sure we have a strong economy, a strong military. as far as our spending, i disagree with the president giving money -- if they cannot protect our embassies, they should not be getting our money.

do not buy a friends. >> isn't there is 60-second rebuttal? >> no, there is not. >> island that on the first one. >> i thought i did, too. >> if we were both under the impression. >> virginia seniors who rely on social security benefits are in for a lifetime of work. almost 1 million virginians receiving social security check every month. they are very polite, receiving on average about 77% of their total monthly income from this alone. an aging society will put strain on the program into the future. how would you protect social security for today's seniors

and a strengthened it for future generations. >> thank you. i think we need to preserve social security for current beneficiaries as well as in the future. social security beneficiaries have for their entire lives and paid into it. they ought to get the benefits that were promised to them. that is one of the reasons why, as governor, we took off the unfair tax and social security. we also did away with the discriminatory tax against federal retirees. one of the things that will help social security is a jobs. the reason is is three years earlier is because there are still people working. one of the reasons is a vibrant economy with people working. there are some changes we

should put on the table and i think there are reasonable ideas for protecting the solvency of social security. that is, for example, for those who are under 50, it would not affect anybody age 50 right now or older. have a gradual increase in the age. another is an increase in the age of eligibility. have some income adjustments. for those who are millionaires, they do not need to have all those same benefits as those of lower income. that would be a way of doing it as well. one thing we should not be doing is what tim kaine try to do as governor -- raise taxes on seniors and working women. those of the folks you are talking about. the last thing they need is more taxes imposed on them by the government. >> he estimates the fact that as governor in eliminated the estate tax and took more than 100,000 low income virginians of the income tax rolls. i just thought i would correct him there. george and i have very

different strategies. this is one of the most important programs that has ever been done by the government. more than 50% of american seniors have retired into poverty before it was passed. thank you we have -- thank god we have those days behind us. hugewould've been a catastrophe prior to the collapse in washington. what i would do is allow the payroll tax of words as a way of protecting the solvency of the program. on medicare, george allen supports the ryan budget that would turn medicare into a voucher program and push costs onto the seniors. i propose a senior savings costs, for example ending the prescription -- that we get. that would save us without jeopardize in the benefit of all. >> mr. allen, to ask both of you to take one minute to respond to tim kaine's

assocation about medicare and to support the ryan budget? >> what i support is preserving medicare. both are programs that people have worked through for their lives. some of the things that can be done in social security also have to be done in my view. that is a gradual increase in the retirement age and eligibility. not for those were 50 and older, but those were under 50. there is also over $50 billion of fraudulent payments. that ought to go to medicare. the one thing that should not be done is what tim kaine supports. what he said previously is that obamacare would be great for democrats. the seniors that i have heard from to not think it is at all grade that over $700 million is being taken out of medicare to

pay for other programs. i have heard from so many folks -- doctors, cardiologists. there will be a researcher, rather than a physician providing those services. they will have difficulty getting access to those because of obamacare taking some much money out of medicare. my general view is that health care decisions ought to be made by doctors and patients -- not government panels up in washington. >> /security and medicare, again, george as a center voted for a risky privatization. i can tell you that i'm in the u.s. senate, i will fight efforts to privatize social security and to my last breath. if it would have been a disaster that had happened. let's talk about medicare. if georgia suggest that i want to take money out of the medicare program. the $700 billion your first to is ending payments to insurance companies so we can extend benefits for seniors.

a prescription drug benefit pre- preventive care. george's plan, repealing the affordable care act would take the benefits back from seniors and give them back to insurance companies. he would give them the right to turn people down for the pre- existing conditions. he would give them the right to charge women differential premiums than men. we will not solve our health care problems by putting insurance companies back in control. let's end the sweetheart deal that was negotiate with pharmaceutical companies and negotiated. we will save $250 billion over 10 years in medicare. >> as a to a question by bill kallio for mr. cain. >> what could congress have done differently that could have led to greater or faster improvements? >> bill, i really believe what i said in my opening that there

are some signs that the economy is starting to move forward. last friday, on the same day, we had the highest down number in five years. the lowest unemployment rate in four years. i think congress is the anchor wait. just look at recent history. there is a veterans a jobs bill that was pending before congress within the last few months. a decision was made by the senate minority to filibuster the bill rather than pass it. that is devastating to veterans. all the reporting suggested they did it because they want to wait past the election day to do something positive. over the summer, republicans in the senate and democrats together pass a farm bill relief. flood insurance. school lunch programs, good for kids and grown-ups. when the bill passed, it went over to the house and the house decided to bottle up until after election day. we have a congress that is so dysfunctional that people will

not work together. we see that again and again. if our ideas are perfect and do not work together, who cares? that is why we cannot afford to go back to a day where we add to the partisan record. we have to have these builders. when he was in the senate, he ridiculed john warner's efforts to find compromise, saying that we do not need to find compromise. i think we need people who know how to compromise in that one of our economy forward. >> i want to get a few things straight here and in answer to your question. first of all, what we need to do is repeal and replace obamacare. i've talked to people but everything from internet access to screening newborn babies. the same as governor in over 300,000 net new jobs to be created and during my four years as governor as opposed to

100,000 jobs being lost. my view on what we ought to do on health care reform is not take a lead the decisions from doctors and patients. we ought to be in power and individuals. we ought to and will address pre-existing conditions. i do think children ought to be a to stay on their parents' policy until age 26. the other thing, for jobs in the economy, this is a real impediment for small businesses. i think small businesses ought to be a will to band together across state lines and have more competition, more choice, and more affordable health insurance. we ought to have help savings accounts be made more prominent. their personal, portable, and you can take them from job to job and not have to worry about a pre-existing condition when you have a new job. there are a lot of things that can be done. what we do not need is higher taxes, more regulations. we need to unleash our american energy resources. have a tax for that is more

simple, competitive, and fair. if you look at my blueprint for america's comeback, that is the way of getting jobs in america. sending the message that america is open for business again. >> i would like to give each of you a minute and a half now related to the follow we just had. mr. kaine can you address that we do not need tax relief and the obamacare should be repealed? >> let me dive right in on taxes. we have a balance sheet that is broken. when george allen went to the senate, it was the spirit we had a surplus. but he broke both sides of the balance sheet. he dramatically slashed taxes and jacked up spending $16,000 of debt every second that he served for six years. the balance sheet was completely out of whack and it is there today. i really believe that to fix it you have to fix and both sides

of the balance sheet. you have to make cuts. i believe that we should be looking to make cuts in the federal budget of about $2 or $3 for every dollar of revenue. i know how to make cuts. i'm the only governor in modern times who left office with a smaller general fund budget and when he started. george has never shown the ability to make any kind of cuts. it with a 45% when he was governor. -- it went up 45% when he was governor. on the other side of the balance sheet, the tax side, i do believe we should let the bush tax cuts expire, as planned. there were temporary, for this to make more than $500,000 a year. that is a compromise between a democratic position of $250,000 and republican position of making all of the tax cuts permanent. if we do that, we raise $500 billion of the next 10 years and that is how we can avoid these catastrophic sequestration cuts. george has pledged never to

raise any tax revenue. he will not fix either side of the balance sheet that needs to be fixed. i record of fixing both sides of the balance sheet. >> you do need a balance. the knees to the cuts made in federal spending and you also need to grow the economy. what we need to repeal and replaces obamacharacter that will save over $1 trillion and be beneficial for small businesses. you can also look at the government where there is efficiencies in overlap. we also need comprehensive tax reform. i think we ought to have a tax code that is more simple, more fair, and more competitive. what i have been advocating is to produce the jobs -- to reduce the jobs to 20%. imposing the worst in the world taxes. if we reduce it to 20%, over

500,000 jobs could be created and $23 billion of new revenue. that will send a message that america is open for business again. we are in america with the most of energy resources in the world. we are ready, willing, and able to provide america with the power to -- with the power to our of economy. on day one, after being sworn in as your senator, i would introduce a bill to allow us in virginia to produce oil and natural gas off of our coast. that will lead to royalties. if we did this nationwide, there would be hundreds of thousands of jobs created and the federal government would be able to get over $1 trillion of revenue without raising taxes. best of all, we would be keeping our money here in united states of america.

that is the way to getting our economy growing and improving the quality of life. the government would decline when life began. do you think your party has gone too far on these issues so much that it might invade the legitimate privacy of women? >> some of those issues are state issues of informed consent. one of them that tim brought up earlier, i would never prohibit contraceptives. i think women ought to be able to have access and should have access to contraceptives. some will say, no, you can't

have access to contraceptives and religious freedoms. anybody who says something like that is just playing politics. we can have religious liberty and women have access to contraceptives. and so those are the issues that are general assembly. one issue has to do with accountability as far as i'm concerned, if a criminal attacks a woman who is pregnant, i think that if that attacker injuries the woman and kills unborn child, i'm wondering for accountability and that measure on personhood would in effect allow accountability for that attack. let me add one other thing tim was talking about when i was in the senate. when i left the senate, tim, unemployment was only 4.4%. the budget deficit, annual deficit, was $160 billion and under trajectory to being balanced. now it's 1.1 trillion, 7 times higher. you mentioned spending at $16,000 per second. you know what it is now? $47,000 per second. >> that doesn't make it any more fair. >> it makes it much, much worse. the other thing is our credit

rating is downgraded for the first time in history. when i left the senate, government was borrowing 6 cents of every dollar spent and now 31 cents being borrowed over every dollar being spent. that's why we need fiscal discipline in washington. >> i have never heard someone defend increasing the debt by $16,000 a second as a good thing. and the thing that's kind of -- >> you wouldn't -- >> that's mystifying about it as he was doing that, he was repeatedly voting to raise his own pay as if that somehow merited a pay increase. on issues of women's health, there was a very, very vivid and i think clarifying spectacle in the general assembly last year. when the legislature tried to force women to have an invasive ultrasound proceeding against their will, medically unnecessary, at their own cost. the bill was moderated but still horrible. i spoke out against it strongly. george allen took no position on it. george allen on his campaign website says we should pass

federal personhood legislation. that should potentially jeopardize f.d.a. approved birth control. george supports the overturning of roe versus wade. i think that would be a very bad idea. and george supported the amendment voted on by the senate that would allow employers to doe nigh women contraceptive coverage at their places of employment. i'm against that. i will protect women's rights to make their own health care decisions because you cannot empower women in the economy if you take away their choices. >> any question from lynn gordon to mr. kaine. >> in order to retain our american democracy, it is important for there to be full disclosure -- i'm sorry, full disclosure of all contributions, not just individuals but those made by third parties, such as corporations and special interests. the bill correctly pending in congress is the disclosed act of 2012. will you support this bill?

>> lynn, i will. i think the current way of fund campaigns that allows secret third party organizations to run ads without disclosing their donors and often run false adds because there's no shame in being associated with the lie, if you can't be associated with a lie, i think it needs to be changed and i would sign on day one to a principle, no secret money new york city one should be able to give money to campaigns and give it in secrecy. at the beginning of this campaign in december, george and i debated and i said to george, let's have this campaign be a campaign against george allen and ask all third parties to stay out and we will just each throw out our visions before the virginia public and they will be able to decide based on the visions we lay out what they want to do. george turned that down, turned that offer down. it's working in one other state, massachusetts. but he rejected it. i went back and said if super pacs are going to be involved, how about having a rule they have to disclose donors? george often praised the virginia system of requiring

full disclosure of campaign contributions. i thought maybe he will bite on this and we can at least have a transparent campaign. once again he turned us down. if you turn on tv now what you're seeing is huge numbers of ads run by third party organizations, often labeled false. you can bet if i'm a united states senator, i will go in -- and not try to defend the status quo, as george has done, but i will try very, very hard to make sure there's no secret money in politics and voters have the right to know who is funding campaigns. it seems pretty basic to me. mr. mr. allen. >> i'm strongly in favor of freedom. the supreme court ruled on these matters. i do like virginia's laws based on freedom and disclosure. and if there was more freedom, more of the contributions would come to the campaigns. what i would like to see in any ads that are run, whether run by candidates or independent groups, including the ones that are running negative ads that are false and misleading about me, is honesty. tim has brought up this issue of pay.

and he's running these ads saying that, quote, he's setting a positive example by cutting his pay as governor. and he attacks the owner. attacked me today again on it. let me give you the truthful facts and you be the judge. as governor day one i returned 10% of my salary. all four years. mark warner followed up after me a few years later and cut his by 20%. what did tim do? he didn't cut his pay at all. when he came in, he could have found followed mark warner or my example but it was well into second year as governor he cut it by just 5%. so i was the one who actually set the positive example, tim, that you followed by you did do it half heartedly. and as far as in the senate, in the senate i returned over six years, $1.4 million from our office accounts. that's about -- over 9%. i don't think there ought to be any pay increases for congress

and indeed i think they ought to withhold the pay of congress because they haven't gotten budget and appropriations bills done on time. >> he went over, can i at least have -- >> no. it's time for mr. allen. you have gone over too. >> mr. allen, president obama decided not to enforce deportation for children of immigrants who came here illegally. do you agree with the decision to allow children of illegal immigrants to stay in this country? >> i think we need real immigration reform. my mother is an immigrant and so i think immigrants can contribute a great deal to our country. and our immigration laws should be based on what's in the best interest of our country. i think what the president did is he ignored the law and rather then taking these cases on an individual basis, he put a whole las of people exempt from the law, which i think is going to make unfortunately more difficult to get real

immigration reform. what i hear from the people of virginia is they want our borders to be secure. that is a primary responsibility of the federal government. people are for -- at least i am -- for making sure america is the world capital of innovation and one of the ways of doing that is making sure we're magnet for best minds of the world and just yesterday at the university of richmond i was saying gosh, if someone's graduating with science or technology or engineering degree and there's jobs and they're needed, attached a green card to their diploma. so i think there are positive constructive reforms we can make. in fact even for temporary workers, h2b workers and seafood industry. they can't find americans to do the work. there ought to be a much better system 0 those people can come in, who are checked out, who are here on a temporary basis to provide good work that's needed here and actually support american jobs. those are the sort of reforms we need and i think we all need

to get together and get a comprehensive reform done. one thing that doesn't work in my view is rewarding illegal behavior because if you do -- >> wire about out of time -- we're about out of time. >> -- if you reward illegal behavior, you only get more of it. >> here's something we agree on. discussion of visa is i think the right thing to do. we need visa reform so students who get degrees and state opportunities for others, we want them to stay. that's very, very important. we also should make process easier for tourists to come to the united states. if you live in brazil, it's a lot easier to go to europe then the u.s. we want you to come here and spend your money. we agree on visa reforms. but where we disagree is the dream act. youngsters brought here by their parents, we shouldn't lock them into underachievement but overachievers and i support a comprehensive reform that is a significant financial penalty they can work it off over a period of years.

we would use the money to add border security and they could get in line to get a green card. georgia's record in congress on immigration has been to oppose comprehensive immigration reform and even pros to eliminate birth right citizenship, which has been part of american law since the aftermath of the civil war. >> bill calio for mr. kaine. >> i want to go back to medicare. you jumped the gun on me on that one. medicare provides guaranteed health coverage for people 65 and older and some disabled citizens. when i talk to people, they call that peace of mind. >> call it what? >> peace of mind. but it's also not free. out-of-pocket comforts are high for virginia's beneficiaries, who span an estimated $4,200 or 13% of their income on premiums, co-payments and deductibles. we know every day more boomers are coming into the system and the numbers of people that have earned their right to medicare will continue to grow.

while at the same time we also know that the cost of health care still continues to go up. put that all together and medicare needs to be rethought of in terms of where we're going to get the financial footage for it. so i would like to ask you to specifically either give one proposal that you would oppose or one proposal that you would approve of that would put medicare on a strong financial ground going into the future without passing on an undo financial burden to seniors and retirees. >> well, medicare is hugely important. it's an important part of the safety net and it's also a challenging problem. let's acknowledge it's challenging because of something good. we're living longer. thank goodness for that. that creates a problem. we have to solve it but we can. i think there are right solutions and wrong solutions. i like solutions in medicare that cut costs and save costs rather than shift costs onto seniors' shoulders. to give you an example, when

medicare part d was expanded to provide prescription drug benefit, i alluded to this earlier and that was voted on when george ail allen was in the united states senate. good program but two mistakes make. congress decided not to pay and put it on the credit card. sec, provision was inserted that made it unlawful for the federal government to negotiate with the companies for the prices of prescription drugs. even though the federal government doesn't negotiate for the same drugs with the same company when we buy them for the v.a. system. if we make that one change, that will save up to $24 billion every years, $240 billion over the next 10 years. it's good for the deficit. it's good for the solvency of medicare but it doesn't jeopardize people's care. second thing i would do and some work on this as being done but there's more to do, in medicare and also in the private

insurance area, i think an important reform that remains is as a nation, we should be paying for health, not procedures. we pay for procedures and we get some of the best, most expensive and most procedures in the world. but if we pay for health and healthy outcomes, we can actually save money and have healthier seniors and also healthier citizens who are happier and more productive. that's a path to cost reforms. >> mr. allen? >> well, tim criticizes me for supporting medicare part d. i think it's been very beneficial to a lot of seniors who now don't have to choose between heat and food and getting prescription drugs. especially coming under budget because there's competition and there's choice. there's also aspects on health savings accounts i think are very beneficial as well. the wrong thing to do in medicare is be rating it and taking $700 billion out of medicare to pay for other programs. tim may call it another program in a different way but that's hardly going to help make sure medicare is solvent in the future. i think it makes sense and gradual increase in the eligibility age for those who

are under age 50. i do think he income adjustments make sense. there are people who don't want to meet and have medicare who have over $1 million in income a year. those are ways of addressing if and also $50 million, $50 billion a year that has been appropriated for fraudulent payments. that ought to go back into medicare. the other thing that ought to be done is allow people to use, if they so desire voluntarily, 401- k's and i.r.a.'s if they so desire to get long-term care insurance so they don't have to lose all of their assets and spend down if they need assisted living later in life. >> thank you. question from bill miller for mr. allen. >> mr. allen, both you and mr. kaine are on record wanting to avoid automatic spending cuts that would be caused by sequestration at the end of the year. assuming there's no change between now and then, congress doesn't take any action, what should congress do next year if and after sequestration takes effect?

>> i am on this first, right? well, it's a decision i was never in favor of. i thought it was fluffing off responsibilities to yet another commission. tim supported it. in a recent debate he said it's the right thing to do. it's not the right thing to do jeopardizing over 200,000 jobs here in virginia as well as affecting adversely military preparedness. what leadership is, is setting priorities. as governor i felt top responsibilities of state government were education and law enforcement the way you pay for it, tim, with a vibrant economy where people are working and businesses are prospering. not higher taxes. what needs to be done in the federal level is set a priority. clearly national defense is a paramount responsibility of the federal government. it's enumerated in the constitution. what needs to be done is make cuts elsewhere but the other aspect is let's grow the economy. reviewing and replacing obama care, that will save a trillion

dollars over a ten-year period. there are efficiencies and redundancies in government that can save tens of billions of dollars. i mentioned earlier and i had to get rushed through it, energy and how energy resources and our country can allow us to have a more secure country, less vulnerable to outside forces but if we unleash energy resources from virginia to the gulf to appalachians to rockies to barren north slope of alaska, there would be literally hundreds of thousands of jobs created and over a trillion dollars of revenues coming to the government without raising taxes. only thing missing is the political will to unleash resources and i aim to provide leadership. >> bill, the question was about sequester and i did not hear any specifics from george how to deal with it other then we should appeal the affordable care act, which the seat -- the c.v.o. said will increase, not reduce, the deficit and put us

right back into the mix of a partisan battle we've been having the last three years. we have to do fiscally responsible thing and find a compromise. here's a come compromise, here's how we can deal with sequester problem. instead of cutting a billion out of defense and nondefense, do three things. let the bush tax cuts expire for the first income over $500,. take away tax subsidies we give to the big five oil companies who made $137 billion in profits last year and let's fix that piece of medicare i talked about earlier. if we do three things and they're all compromised positions, we don't have a trillion cuts to find over ten years, have about $225 billion of cuts spread across government and secretary panetta said we can find savings. just don't give us a number that's too ugly or big. there are specifics and things we can do this year to avoid the sequestration effect. >> mr. kaine, this week the